godsdaddy
Regular Member
Hello all, wanted to wait to introduce myself properly in a different way, but thought this would be as good a reason as any. I've been living here in WA since August of last year (Thurston County) and have been OCing since then (split OC/CC about 50/50) without incident. I've been lurking on the site since I got to WA, and finally got around to joining.
This last weekend I was camping with my family up at Alder Lake Park near Elbe and had my first OC interaction. I was setting up my site on Friday (was OCing) and was approached by a park employee and told that I could not "display" my firearm in the park. I told them open carry was legal in Washington and no license was required. The employee stated it was a "park rule", and I asked if they were familiar with the state pre-emption statue, as I believed the park to be public property (operated by Tacoma Power, a division of the City of Tacoma). They said they were not, but asked if I would conceal. I told them I would not at that time, and they went on their way without further issue. About an hour or so later I was again contacted by an employee of the park, this time the "park manager" and told I had to conceal my firearm or put it away. I explained the same things to the "manager" and he stated the park was "private property" and the rules had to be followed. I asked why the park was "private" if it was run by the City of Tacoma, and he said it was not, it was run by Tacoma Power. I asked who owned Tacoma Power and he said "Tacoma Public Utilities". I asked specifically who signed his paycheck (more on this in a minute) and he would not answer me. He said if I refused to follow the rules, he would call the Pierce County Sheriff to come and "take my gun away" (his words) to which I asked him if he was asking me to leave the property. He stated that he was not asking/telling me to leave, but I needed to put my gun away or conceal it. I welcomed him to return with the Sheriff, and he went on his way. I OCed the rest of the afternoon without incident, until dinner time when I decided to enjoy a few adult beverages, at which point I secured my firearm for the evening. I was not bothered again by any employees, and no LEOs stopped by.
The next day I OCed for a couple of hours in the park before/after heading up to Paradise without incident. I OCed (GP100) the entire time I was in the National Park without incident, even got a couple of compliments from other people and one Park Ranger. After settling in for the evening, I switched my GP100 out for my LC9 in pocket carry, and got ready to head out for a walk with my family. I noticed the Pierce County Sheriff driving around and watched him drive by my site twice without so much as a second look. While we were out walking, I saw the Sheriff stopped in a public area and I approached him to ask if he knew whether the park was public or private property. He responded he thought it was county property, but was not sure. (Deputy Hoyt was the individual I approached.) I asked if he was approached by the park supervisor about someone open carrying in the park, to which he replied he was not. He stated he was aware of OC, and didn't have a problem with it. He said he was not that familiar with the laws regarding OC, or pre-emption, but would do some research and talk with the park manager. He did not ask for my ID, did not leave his vehicle, and I believe it was an overall positive encounter.
About an hour later, as I was getting back to my site I saw the Sheriff driving by again, this time with second vehicle with him, which I assumed to be his supervisor. Deputy Hoyt and Deputy Neimann (supervisor?) approached my site and Hoyt said he had talked with the park manager who insisted the park was private property. Neimann stated that he knew what pre-emtion was, and that he knew that OC was legal, and so did the park manager, but stated that the park had "several" complaints about my firearm from other guests. I reiterated that OC was a legal activity and the discomfort of others with firearms was not, in and of itself, "warranting or cause for alarm for the safety of other persons" in accordance with RCW 9.41.270. Neimann stated he was aware of the law, and that there was no problem with my firearm, but asked that I keep the "enjoyment" of the other campers in mind. I asked if he was telling me I needed to conceal (never asked if I had a CPL), and he stated that he was not, just asking that I "be considerate to others". He thanked me, we shook hands, and the deputies went on their way. I was not contacted again by anyone for the remainder of the weekend. I was not asked for my ID, whether or not I had a CPL, or any other identifying information. I am sure the deputies could have gotten my name from the park manager, since they knew my site number, or run my vehicle plates. (did not cover up the front plate, per Gogodogs’ recent experience at a state park) Overall I thought it was a positive interaction and the deputies were only following up with me to appease the park manager, if nothing else.
I contacted another member here that I had met at the Lacey BBQ (JParks29) about this incident from the campground, since I could not access this site since I had poor connectivity at the park. From what research I have been able to do, the park is operated by Tacoma Power, which is owned by the Tacoma Public Utilities division of the City of Tacoma. The park signage quotes Tacoma City ordinances (not the "no firearms signs”, those are just painted wooden "slats" on the big "rule board"), the signs at the registration office say "Make checks payable to the City of Tacoma Treasurer", and park vehicles are using official "exempt" XMT plates. I asked the park manager who signed his paycheck because I'd be willing to bet it’s the same "City of Tacoma Treasurer" that you make your checks payable to for using the park, meaning the park manager is a city employee. My phone was not working well at the park, so I did not carry it on me and was not able to record any of the interactions. Had the last interaction with the PCSO deputies gone any longer, my wife would've recorded it with her phone, but by the time she went and got it out, the interaction was over.
So, my question is am I correct in my determination that Alder Lake Park is operated by the City of Tacoma, thru their Public Utilities Division (Tacoma Power) and that pre-emption does apply? I think this was overall a positive encounter, especially with the PCSO deputies. I'd like to re-engage the park manager the next time I'm up there about the park's affiliation with the City of Tacoma and hence the applicability of state pre-emption and their park rules, and wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something first. Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide.
TL;DR:
Camped at Alder Lake Park, told I couldn't OC by the park employees. Had a voluntary contact (positive) with the PCSO, who told me there was no problem with my OC and just to "be considerate of others". Need to know if Alder Park is indeed owned/operated by the City of Tacoma, making pre-emption applicable.
Thanks,
Bryan
ETA: It's a bit of a drive, but that would be a great place to hold an OC picnic in the future, if indeed pre-emption applies. Also, I forgot to bring the pamphlets I picked up from the Lacey picnic with me. Lesson learned!
This last weekend I was camping with my family up at Alder Lake Park near Elbe and had my first OC interaction. I was setting up my site on Friday (was OCing) and was approached by a park employee and told that I could not "display" my firearm in the park. I told them open carry was legal in Washington and no license was required. The employee stated it was a "park rule", and I asked if they were familiar with the state pre-emption statue, as I believed the park to be public property (operated by Tacoma Power, a division of the City of Tacoma). They said they were not, but asked if I would conceal. I told them I would not at that time, and they went on their way without further issue. About an hour or so later I was again contacted by an employee of the park, this time the "park manager" and told I had to conceal my firearm or put it away. I explained the same things to the "manager" and he stated the park was "private property" and the rules had to be followed. I asked why the park was "private" if it was run by the City of Tacoma, and he said it was not, it was run by Tacoma Power. I asked who owned Tacoma Power and he said "Tacoma Public Utilities". I asked specifically who signed his paycheck (more on this in a minute) and he would not answer me. He said if I refused to follow the rules, he would call the Pierce County Sheriff to come and "take my gun away" (his words) to which I asked him if he was asking me to leave the property. He stated that he was not asking/telling me to leave, but I needed to put my gun away or conceal it. I welcomed him to return with the Sheriff, and he went on his way. I OCed the rest of the afternoon without incident, until dinner time when I decided to enjoy a few adult beverages, at which point I secured my firearm for the evening. I was not bothered again by any employees, and no LEOs stopped by.
The next day I OCed for a couple of hours in the park before/after heading up to Paradise without incident. I OCed (GP100) the entire time I was in the National Park without incident, even got a couple of compliments from other people and one Park Ranger. After settling in for the evening, I switched my GP100 out for my LC9 in pocket carry, and got ready to head out for a walk with my family. I noticed the Pierce County Sheriff driving around and watched him drive by my site twice without so much as a second look. While we were out walking, I saw the Sheriff stopped in a public area and I approached him to ask if he knew whether the park was public or private property. He responded he thought it was county property, but was not sure. (Deputy Hoyt was the individual I approached.) I asked if he was approached by the park supervisor about someone open carrying in the park, to which he replied he was not. He stated he was aware of OC, and didn't have a problem with it. He said he was not that familiar with the laws regarding OC, or pre-emption, but would do some research and talk with the park manager. He did not ask for my ID, did not leave his vehicle, and I believe it was an overall positive encounter.
About an hour later, as I was getting back to my site I saw the Sheriff driving by again, this time with second vehicle with him, which I assumed to be his supervisor. Deputy Hoyt and Deputy Neimann (supervisor?) approached my site and Hoyt said he had talked with the park manager who insisted the park was private property. Neimann stated that he knew what pre-emtion was, and that he knew that OC was legal, and so did the park manager, but stated that the park had "several" complaints about my firearm from other guests. I reiterated that OC was a legal activity and the discomfort of others with firearms was not, in and of itself, "warranting or cause for alarm for the safety of other persons" in accordance with RCW 9.41.270. Neimann stated he was aware of the law, and that there was no problem with my firearm, but asked that I keep the "enjoyment" of the other campers in mind. I asked if he was telling me I needed to conceal (never asked if I had a CPL), and he stated that he was not, just asking that I "be considerate to others". He thanked me, we shook hands, and the deputies went on their way. I was not contacted again by anyone for the remainder of the weekend. I was not asked for my ID, whether or not I had a CPL, or any other identifying information. I am sure the deputies could have gotten my name from the park manager, since they knew my site number, or run my vehicle plates. (did not cover up the front plate, per Gogodogs’ recent experience at a state park) Overall I thought it was a positive interaction and the deputies were only following up with me to appease the park manager, if nothing else.
I contacted another member here that I had met at the Lacey BBQ (JParks29) about this incident from the campground, since I could not access this site since I had poor connectivity at the park. From what research I have been able to do, the park is operated by Tacoma Power, which is owned by the Tacoma Public Utilities division of the City of Tacoma. The park signage quotes Tacoma City ordinances (not the "no firearms signs”, those are just painted wooden "slats" on the big "rule board"), the signs at the registration office say "Make checks payable to the City of Tacoma Treasurer", and park vehicles are using official "exempt" XMT plates. I asked the park manager who signed his paycheck because I'd be willing to bet it’s the same "City of Tacoma Treasurer" that you make your checks payable to for using the park, meaning the park manager is a city employee. My phone was not working well at the park, so I did not carry it on me and was not able to record any of the interactions. Had the last interaction with the PCSO deputies gone any longer, my wife would've recorded it with her phone, but by the time she went and got it out, the interaction was over.
So, my question is am I correct in my determination that Alder Lake Park is operated by the City of Tacoma, thru their Public Utilities Division (Tacoma Power) and that pre-emption does apply? I think this was overall a positive encounter, especially with the PCSO deputies. I'd like to re-engage the park manager the next time I'm up there about the park's affiliation with the City of Tacoma and hence the applicability of state pre-emption and their park rules, and wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something first. Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide.
TL;DR:
Camped at Alder Lake Park, told I couldn't OC by the park employees. Had a voluntary contact (positive) with the PCSO, who told me there was no problem with my OC and just to "be considerate of others". Need to know if Alder Park is indeed owned/operated by the City of Tacoma, making pre-emption applicable.
Thanks,
Bryan
ETA: It's a bit of a drive, but that would be a great place to hold an OC picnic in the future, if indeed pre-emption applies. Also, I forgot to bring the pamphlets I picked up from the Lacey picnic with me. Lesson learned!
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