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Thread: Cite help

  1. #1
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Cite help

    Sorry found my answer.

    Thanks XMANHOCKEY7
    Last edited by WilDChilD; 06-01-2012 at 11:49 AM.

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    Need a cite for casino carry. I cant remember if its ok to CC in to Indian casinos or the ones in detroit. Tried search feature and it was not very helpful. Any help (like always) is apprecated.
    You can't have firearms on casinos under the state gaming laws (Detroit casinos.) Indian casinos are NOT under state control in regards to the gaming laws. BUT they can ban firearms.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Dr. Todd posted this on this site.

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.


    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:


    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.


    and:


    ABOUT NATIVE AMERICAN CASINOS
    Native American tribes are sovereign nations. As such, the State of Michigan does not have general regulatory authority over Indian casinos, although the State does have oversight authority over compliance with the State-Tribal Compact provisions. They are regulated by the National Indian Gaming Commission and the government of the appropriate tribal community.
    --http://www.michigan.gov/mgcb/0,4620,...2858--,00.html


    NA casinos, are not under regulation of the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226 and are therefore, in my personal, non-lawyer opinion, not a pfz. I would cc or oc there as I wished. But, since this is not legal advice, YOU may wish to consult with an attorney before doing so. Additionally, I have found nothing to indicate that they have in any way banned firearms; I looked at their compact and have searched their tribal website. Also, I believe that even if there were a rule regarding this, Trespass might be the most likely outcome if asked to leave and you didn't.


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  4. #4
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    Sorry found my answer.

    Thanks XMANHOCKEY7
    Don't know how I helped but you're welcome!
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  5. #5
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Dr. Todd posted this on this site.

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.


    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:


    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.


    and:


    ABOUT NATIVE AMERICAN CASINOS
    Native American tribes are sovereign nations. As such, the State of Michigan does not have general regulatory authority over Indian casinos, although the State does have oversight authority over compliance with the State-Tribal Compact provisions. They are regulated by the National Indian Gaming Commission and the government of the appropriate tribal community.
    --http://www.michigan.gov/mgcb/0,4620,...2858--,00.html


    NA casinos, are not under regulation of the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226 and are therefore, in my personal, non-lawyer opinion, not a pfz. I would cc or oc there as I wished. But, since this is not legal advice, YOU may wish to consult with an attorney before doing so. Additionally, I have found nothing to indicate that they have in any way banned firearms; I looked at their compact and have searched their tribal website. Also, I believe that even if there were a rule regarding this, Trespass might be the most likely outcome if asked to leave and you didn't.


    Does this mean that the charity poker rooms are PFZ?
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  6. #6
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    My question started because of a post MGO.

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...=180734&page=2

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmer Dan
    I've worked with Indian Gaming since 1989, I can't quote/cite any laws or copy and paste anything off the internet. But I can tell you what I have seen happen with my own two eyes. Get caught with a gun and you'll get a free ride to Grand Rapids for court a appearance.
    What do people think? How trustable are the Farmers eyes?

  7. #7
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Don't know how I helped but you're welcome!
    This is why I thanked you. Gave you credit in the post also.

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    As taught on a video made for CPL classes and the MSP website guns are banned from casinos in Michigan. This is only partially true. Under the concealed carry act where guns are prohibited it does not even mention casinos.


    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The
    Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.


    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.




    The law that they are trying to refer to is the administrative rules made by the Michigan Gaming Control Board, which gets its authority from the Michigan Gaming Control and Revenue act (MGCRA). The board made this administrative rule:


    R 432.1212 Weapons in casino.
    Rule 212. (1) An individual may not carry a firearm or other weapon in a casino, except for the following entities:
    (a) State, county, city, township, or village law enforcement officers, as defined in section 2(e) of Act No. 203 of the Public Acts of 1965, as amended, being § 28.601 et seq. of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (b) Federal law enforcement officers, as defined in 5 U.S.C. § 8331.
    (c) Armored car personnel picking up or delivering currency at secured areas.
    (2) Law enforcement officers conducting official duties within a casino shall, to the extent practicable, advise the Michigan state police gaming section of their presence.
    (3) Private casino security personnel may carry handcuffs while on duty in a casino.







    The MGCRA gives definitions for the act. One is “casino”. Casino is defined as “a building in which gaming is conducted.” This definition should not be confused with what is considered a “casino enterprise”. A “casino enterprise” is defined as “the buildings, facilities, or rooms functionally or physically connected to a casino, including but not limited to any bar, restaurant, hotel, cocktail lounge, retail establishment, or arena or any other facility located in a city under the control of a casino licensee or affiliated company.”



    Looking at this one would think this would apply to all casinos in Michigan. This is incorrect. The Michigan Gaming Control and Revenue act only applies to three privately owned casinos within the city of Detroit and the Michigan Gaming Control Board to oversee/regulate those casinos. Since other casinos in Michigan are tribal and not controlled under the MGCRA, 432.1212 does not apply to them and the tribes are able to make their own laws regarding guns in their casinos or on tribal land in general.


    Native American casinos, just like private property, are not covered under state preemption, and may restrict the carry or possession of firearms in the casino or on their premises (including parking lots). Violating their rule may cause a person to be charged with trespassing.

  8. #8
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    What about tribal law? Since they're sovereign nations on US soil, can they establish ordinances covering firearm possession on tribal property? (beyond trespassing?)
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 06-02-2012 at 10:12 AM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  9. #9
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    What about tribal law? Since they're sovereign nations on US soil, can they establish ordinances covering firearm possession on tribal property? (beyond trespassing?)
    Yes but it only applies to natives. Great article on tribal laws in Michigan. http://www.michbar.org/journal/pdf/pdf4article1640.pdf
    Last edited by Venator; 06-02-2012 at 04:57 PM.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  10. #10
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    Does this mean that the charity poker rooms are PFZ?
    Anyone?
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  11. #11
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    Does this mean that the charity poker rooms are PFZ?
    I don't know is it inside one of the 3 privately owned casinos in Detroit? Is it listed under 28.425o? If not then CC and OC is legal with a CPL. If it's not one of the 3 privately owned casinos or listed under 750.234d then OC without a CPL is legal.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    Anyone?
    Ask an attorney here: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...oard,32.0.html

  13. #13
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    I found a thread on MGO that pretty much confirms what I had always assumed - http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...hlight=charity
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  14. #14
    Regular Member MI_XD's Avatar
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    Carry in Mt Pleasant Casino

    Talking to a friend of ours who is a federal detective working with the tribal police in Mt Pleasant, if they find you carrying at the casino there, they will "request" that it be returned to your vehicle. This was just an informal conversation, and has not been confirmed by any actual event.

  15. #15
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MI_XD View Post
    Talking to a friend of ours who is a federal detective working with the tribal police in Mt Pleasant, if they find you carrying at the casino there, they will "request" that it be returned to your vehicle. This was just an informal conversation, and has not been confirmed by any actual event.
    If you decline there "request" will they elevate to a demand? If that is the case it was never really a " request" in the first place.

  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    If you decline there "request" will they elevate to a demand? If that is the case it was never really a " request" in the first place.
    Just like any private property.

    I have oc'd at the Williamsburg casino hotel and chose to cc in the actual casino. This was a few years ago, though. My reasoning revolved more around "situational" awareness than any other concern. I just could see myself getting caught up in my playing the slots and have someone attempt to take my pistol. I did get some stares while oc in the hotel, but no one approached me about it.

  17. #17
    Regular Member MI_XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    If you decline there "request" will they elevate to a demand? If that is the case it was never really a " request" in the first place.
    That was why the quotes on request... They give you the chance to take it to the vehicle instead of immediately slappng on the cuffs.
    Yes, I guess that would be like any other private property.

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MI_XD View Post
    That was why the quotes on request... They give you the chance to take it to the vehicle instead of immediately slappng on the cuffs.
    Yes, I guess that would be like any other private property.
    Most tribal police officers are "cross-deputized" by the county sheriff for the county in which the casino is found... if the tribal officers have been trained/certified by MCOLES. If you refuse to leave, they would have the power to enforce the state trespassing statute under the authority of the sheriff.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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