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Thread: hypocracy about supporting rights, liberty, and freedom

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    hypocracy about supporting rights, liberty, and freedom

    http://www.outdoorhub.com/opinions/open-carry-activism/

    I believe in human rights, liberty, and freedom. I strongly support any law-abiding citizenís right to openly carry a pistol. My personal choice, however, is to carry concealed when I am in town. I have several reasons for this. The most important is that concealing the pistol gives me an element of surprise and can prevent a criminal from approaching with the intent of neutralizing the weapon or making me a primary target. Another reason that I usually conceal my pistol is to prevent offending people. The presence of a weapon intimidates many people. Modern entertainment and education has caused some Americans to develop an unfounded fear of firearms. Someone who feels uncomfortable when seeing me openly carrying a firearm may be transformed from being largely unconcerned about firearms into an anti-gun activist. However, I will not tell others how to carry and would never oppose anyoneís right to openly carry a firearm.
    And then he goes on to tell us all precisely how to carry. Doing so proves his first two sentences are, to be polite and socially appropriate, not quite accurate.

    Yes, I am sending a comment at the magazine, as well as directly to the author: Dylan Saundersí website, 7.62 Precision . You are encouraged to pile on as well.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    I don't really see any hypocrisy. He's giving his opinion on OC, but not telling anyone they can't or advocating a law disallowing OC. His opinion is highly misguided and a bit poisonous. But once again, he's not exactly advocating anti-OC laws.

    What did you say in your email, Skid?

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    I'm with Jack House.

    The guy says he believes in "rights, liberty and freedom" and not once does he go on to say that anyone should be restricted from OCing. I don't see the hypocracy either.

    Although I think this line is a bit ridiculous:
    Someone who feels uncomfortable when seeing me openly carrying a firearm may be transformed from being largely unconcerned about firearms into an anti-gun activist.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Ok (cracks knuckles), here we go...

    I believe in human rights, liberty, and freedom. I strongly support any law-abiding citizenís right to openly carry a pistol. My personal choice, however, is to carry concealed when I am in town. I have several reasons for this. The most important is that concealing the pistol gives me an element of surprise...
    There is some truth in this. However, by carrying a black firearm in a black holster held against black jeans while wearing a dark-colored shirt, I achieve more than half that same "element of surprise." Simply by turning my body sideways, with my firearm away from a potential perp, I can achieve 100% surprise, but that requires me to be vigilant, which, by the way, is a good thing, not a bad thing.

    ...and can prevent a criminal from approaching with the intent of neutralizing the weapon or making me a primary target.
    This depends entirely on why the criminal might be targeting you. If he's targeting you because he intends to rob you, OC is actually a deterrent, as murder is not their primary objective. They want your money, not your life, and they're certainly not willing to risk loosing theirs in the process.

    Another reason that I usually conceal my pistol is to prevent offending people. The presence of a weapon intimidates many people.
    Correction: The presence of a weapon intimidates only those who've become accustomed to rarely seeing a firearm, except perhaps on LEOs. It certainly does not intimidate the vast majority of people here in Colorado Springs, where OC is more common than in most areas.

    Modern entertainment and education has caused some Americans to develop an unfounded fear of firearms.
    True.

    Someone who feels uncomfortable when seeing me openly carrying a firearm may be transformed from being largely unconcerned about firearms into an anti-gun activist.
    Not only is this unlikely, but the author ignores the other possible outcome: By dressing professionally and being courteous, it's significantly more likely the individual will be transformed into someone who understands and respects others' right to keep and bear arms. In fact, I've known folks who were transformed into being advocates of RKBA, including doing so themselves.

    However, I will not tell others how to carry and would never oppose anyoneís right to openly carry a firearm.
    I do see some hypocrisy here, as sharing one's opinion is an act of social influence as old as mankind itself. By sharing his opinion, he may not be overtly telling others how to carry, but he most certainly is attempting to influence others to carry in the same manner he does, and therefore a subtle opposition to open carry rights.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    I didn't see it as him being hypocritical, but I did take enough of an issue as to post a comment.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Donít be confrontational, especially with law enforcement officers. By interacting with law enforcement in a positive way, we are reaffirming the fact that an armed citizenry is not a threat to law enforcement.
    This is one part with which I take issue. Why would law enforcement, absence RAS need to interact with an OC-er? It's not the OC-er that is being confrontational. He has it backward and doesn't seem to realize it.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The most important is that concealing the pistol gives me an element of surprise and can prevent a criminal from approaching with the intent of neutralizing the weapon or making me a primary target
    It will not prevent a criminal from approaching you to rob you.

    CCW makes you a likely target because you appear to be unarmed and a easy target.

    ....sigh....typical of the anti-OC crowd.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    This is one part with which I take issue. Why would law enforcement, absence RAS need to interact with an OC-er? It's not the OC-er that is being confrontational. He has it backward and doesn't seem to realize it.
    I have to take issue with this very common mindset. A LEO wanting to check on "things" is fine by me. I talk to them all the time. When it is in regards to me OCing, I stay polite as I can, stand my ground concerning my rights, and keep it short. I don't give up my ID, they don't touch my firearm, and if they don't like it or get aggressive, then I just call their supervisor. There's no reason to get heated with what is generally considered to be an authority figure in the public eye. That's not how you win support for our cause.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    I have to take issue with this very common mindset. A LEO wanting to check on "things" is fine by me. I talk to them all the time. When it is in regards to me OCing, I stay polite as I can, stand my ground concerning my rights, and keep it short. I don't give up my ID, they don't touch my firearm, and if they don't like it or get aggressive, then I just call their supervisor. There's no reason to get heated with what is generally considered to be an authority figure in the public eye. That's not how you win support for our cause.
    Are you ok with non LEO, just wanting to check on "things" too?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    ....uh, well, that's different.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    I have no problem what so ever with someone asking me why I'm carrying. That's a possible teaching opportunity.

    Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Are you ok with non LEO, just wanting to check on "things" too?
    Honestly I don't have a problem with anyone checking on things. The issue comes when the person is rude or violates my rights. For cops I hold them to a higher standard because they "should" know the laws and Constitition that they are to uphold and enforce. A citizen not knowing is (sadly) to be expected, but a cop not knowing has me questioning if they are just out to enforce color of law on something they don't like

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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    I'm with Jack House.

    The guy says he believes in "rights, liberty and freedom" and not once does he go on to say that anyone should be restricted from OCing. I don't see the hypocracy either.

    Although I think this line is a bit ridiculous:
    Exactly. The guy merely points out his preferred method of carry- suitable to his own personal level of comfort.
    His logic used to describe it may not be the popular, or even the most rational (from our points of view) one-but no where do I read him saying he opposes anyone else's preferrences...
    And the end of the day, the guy seems to still be entirely pro 2A, and he is at least carrying- albiet to his own level of comfort.
    I'll happily take that, anyday, over a dedicated Anti/Abosuletely-Not type.
    I truly find the whole OC/CC debate silly,especially in a case where we are going to cruxify a guy just for suggesting CC-even though he his not openly opposed to OC by others.
    If this is the way he feels, and chooses to carry-good for him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    I have no problem what so ever with someone asking me why I'm carrying. That's a possible teaching opportunity.

    Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2
    I don't either, but they don't get to "check on things" using color of authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Honestly I don't have a problem with anyone checking on things. The issue comes when the person is rude or violates my rights. For cops I hold them to a higher standard because they "should" know the laws and Constitition that they are to uphold and enforce. A citizen not knowing is (sadly) to be expected, but a cop not knowing has me questioning if they are just out to enforce color of law on something they don't like
    That is what I was getting at.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    1. Donít be confrontational, especially with law enforcement officers. Officers have a lot to deal with. Some are more professional than others, but most are actually strong supporters of our right to be armed for self-protection.
    I don't take issue with about 99% of what he wrote, but do have to take issue with the LEO comment. Without qualifying for Terry Stops and ID, I don't know which side of it he is on. If you do a youtube search you will find numerous videos that LEO stop an OCer and demand ID, and do their best to find something to get an OCer on if they don't produce ID.

    I'm not giving the guy a total fail, but until he articulates that position -- that is the deciding factor.

    If someone approaches me as an OCer, the reply to "You're carrying a gun?" in any format is "Yes." with no other words or exposition. It is up to them to decide what they are going to do from there. If LEO approaches it is pretty much the same approach. They decide to escalate or deescalate as they desire. But know the ID requirements for your state.

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    Deleted content as I posted to the wrong thread.

    Thanks for setting me straight JH.
    Last edited by jimpen; 06-17-2012 at 03:00 AM.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Jim, I think you posted that last reply in the wrong thread. This is the thread you were looking for.

    As for your other response; correct me if I'm wrong. But the man said don't be confrontational, not cooperate at all times regardless. There is a difference between being confrontational and non-cooperative. It is possible to be one but not the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Jim, I think you posted that last reply in the wrong thread. This is the thread you were looking for.
    You were right about posting to the wrong thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    As for your other response; correct me if I'm wrong. But the man said don't be confrontational, not cooperate at all times regardless. There is a difference between being confrontational and non-cooperative. It is possible to be one but not the other.
    How was this this guy confrontational? The police approached him for OC, he did his best to polite, but the LEO essentially grabbed the weapon out of the holster, didn't watch the muzzle and was essentially demanding ID for no reason. I look at it that the LEO did not know the boundaries.

    I will reserve judgement but as I said before -- not a fail, but not a home run either.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimpen View Post
    How was this this guy confrontational? The police approached him for OC, he did his best to polite, but the LEO essentially grabbed the weapon out of the holster, didn't watch the muzzle and was essentially demanding ID for no reason. I look at it that the LEO did not know the boundaries.

    I will reserve judgement but as I said before -- not a fail, but not a home run either.
    2 things.

    1. You say essentially way too much.
    2. Does the article actually reference that video as a what not to do type of example? I did not see any reference to it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    I have no problem what so ever with someone asking me why I'm carrying. That's a possible teaching opportunity.

    Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2
    Not interested in your gun.

    Me: What are you doing here? Where are you going? Where do you live? Show me some ID. I will need to hold that weapon....for your safety and mine.
    You: Are you a cop?
    Me: Nope, just a concerned citizen needing to 'check you out'....ya never know about folks these days.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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