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Thread: Waterford PD "You do have the Constitutional right to not videotape that"

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Waterford PD "You do have the Constitutional right to not videotape that"

    http://www.pixiq.com/article/michigan-cop-to-citizen

    Waterford Police threaten to "take as evidence" a video camera from a person who was video taping the end of a high speed chase in Waterford, this is a video story worth watching.

    So my question is: Can they legally do that? So far as I understand it they can't stop a person who is video taping in public where privacy is not at issue. Am I wrong?
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Hell no they can't stop someone from videotaping. But they will try, and there are no available repercussions, because the law doesn't have a very substantial available penalty aside from the never enforced federal color of law statutes, and even if there were better laws to prevent this kind of ****, the thin blue line hates taking out its trash.

    Hence, when someone feels a need to record, I suggest having at least 2 back up recorders which are hidden.

    By the way, do you guys think we should FOIA the city or department policy which requires seizing private videos as evidence?
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-02-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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    FOIA and whatever else can be thrown at them.

    Waterford needs to get their aces checked, and have for a very very long time. They do as they please down there.

    ETA, Its not that I have a chip on my shoulder from the schools thing, (which I do,), but that I grew up there, I know first hand. I was expecting to run into what I ran into with the schools, because I already know how they are.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 06-02-2012 at 04:12 PM.

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    http://www.pixiq.com/article/michigan-cop-to-citizen

    Waterford Police threaten to "take as evidence" a video camera from a person who was video taping the end of a high speed chase in Waterford, this is a video story worth watching.

    So my question is: Can they legally do that? So far as I understand it they can't stop a person who is video taping in public where privacy is not at issue. Am I wrong?
    Read this article and the UC court decision farther down. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...recording-LEOs
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Waterford PD is really starting to piss me off. After dealing with them in the school OC incident, I can see they are thugs and will do whatever they want. MOC really needs to get on board and start doing something about them.

    If not MOC then perhaps CLSD can step up.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Waterford PD is really starting to piss me off. After dealing with them in the school OC incident, I can see they are thugs and will do whatever they want. MOC really needs to get on board and start doing something about them.

    If not MOC then perhaps CLSD can step up.
    You're on the MOC Leadership team. Maybe you could start an email with the MOC Leadership to discuss some "next steps"....?

    Alternately, maybe post some ideas and start a discussion on the MOC Forum about what MOC should do about Waterford....?
    Last edited by TheQ; 06-02-2012 at 08:18 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    smoking crap bag on the doorstep?

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You're on the MOC Leadership team. Maybe you could start an email with the MOC Leadership to discuss some "next steps"....?

    Alternately, maybe post some ideas and start a discussion on the MOC Forum about what MOC should do about Waterford....?
    I think MOC knows what it needs to do. I can't add anything more than what I have already been doing for years and have passed on to others including some members of the MOC board and coordinators.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I think MOC knows what it needs to do. I can't add anything more than what I have already been doing for years and have passed on to others including some members of the MOC board and coordinators.
    Is this an open carry issue? Doesn't appear to be. CLSD should by all means step up.

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    It has been, isn't so much now, but will be again.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I think MOC knows what it needs to do. I can't add anything more than what I have already been doing for years and have passed on to others including some members of the MOC board and coordinators.
    "MOC" can't know anything; it's a corporation. It's leadership is what knows and does things. How about an email with a plan of action? Have you (or anyone else in MOC leadership, to your knowledge) proposed any plan of action that the Board of Directors has voted on and turned down?

    You suggesting that I am not doing enough to carry the torch? I'm just one man. I don't get involved much at the local level, as we have others in the leadership team on the local level. I do a lot of involvement at the state level though...and if one of our local people asks me to get involved at the local level I certainly will.

    As a team we are strong. I can't do it all by myself. You seem to think the board of directors are the only people in leadership who should do things....?
    Last edited by TheQ; 06-02-2012 at 09:27 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  12. #12
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    What a poster child this forum is for the anti's.

    Like a bunch of angry vultures; to busy picking at each others scabs instead of a true combined effort to reach an ultimate goal.
    Let's all just keep putting the blame or responsibility on someone else and keep the light off our own short comings.
    Always looking for an us vs them instead of.... US!

    As Bikenut so aptly puts it... Sad, truly sad.

    My opinions are my own.

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I have said what I have said and will leave it at that. If someone would like to propose an idea about anything to the leadership of Michigan Open Carry, we welcome it.


    Somebody else can have the last word.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    This is not even a gun issue. I was only trying to get some information while posting on a local issue with a Police Department that has been known to over-step. This IS not an Open Carry issue, its not a "Constituitional Carry" thing either. I now carry a concealable hi-def video device as daily carry so I was only trying to get some info on legallity. My camera happens to be small enough to pass even a close inspection so any casual observation will not normally allow it to be seen. I got the info I needed but did not really expect the in-fighting to develope. This could easily be a gun rights issue though if I were taping a police encounter that goes bad similar to what happened at Warren PD.

    This becomes more time relevant because of the up coming Birmingham event.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    I got the info I needed but did not really expect the in-fighting to develope. This could easily be a gun rights issue though if I were taping a police encounter that goes bad similar to what happened at Warren PD.
    Then, as now, I don't really care about who takes the leadership role, and who takes credit, and all that nonsense.

    If you have an action you want to take, count me in. Between you and me and others on this forum, I don't see any need for a business structure to take on individual issues.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    +1. It used to work, but it doesn't now?!? Does that make sense to anyone?

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    As a former first responder, I can tell you that body recovery is a very emotional situation, even for the most jaded emergency workers. Out of respect for the victim of a fatality, and their family, emergency workers will do pretty much anything to protect the victim & family by shielding it from prying eyes.

    The police officer used a poor choice of method to deter the ghoul that was filming this particular segment of the tragedy. There's nothing newsworthy about emergency workers pulling a mangled body from the wreckage.

    Imagine how the family would feel? What if it were your loved one? Would you want to see that sad moment paraded on You Tube like some macabre trophy?

    Yes, you are constitutionally protected; but its like yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Its just sick to film body recovery.

    The First Amendment has certain restrictions for a reason; this situation is one of them. Save your video for real news, you sick ghoul bastard. Give the victim some privacy.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Waterford

    Stainless did you ever contact or meet with city council members ive talked with atleast one who knows OC is legal his name is Anthony Bartollota he is very well versed in it he doesnt care about oc his neighbor does it and doesnt mind it. Some businesses like one you visited stainless it use to be megapawn in waterford i wont go there anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    If you have an action you want to take, count me in. Between you and me and others on this forum, I don't see any need for a business structure to take on individual issues.
    Well said. The answer to every problem is not MOC, MGO, NRA ect...

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    I never talked to city counsel. I wanted to leave that to people that specialize, I will go if theres a meet up in Waterford if it comes to it.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 06-03-2012 at 11:16 AM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I must disagree, Shadow Bear, it's not at all like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater has the potential for causing actual physical harm to patrons as they attempt to flee the fire by rushing the exits.

    You and I may think it's ghoulish, but there is nothing illegal about the same behavior the "regular" news agencies would be doing if they were on-site.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    As a former first responder, I can tell you that body recovery is a very emotional situation, even for the most jaded emergency workers. Out of respect for the victim of a fatality, and their family, emergency workers will do pretty much anything to protect the victim & family by shielding it from prying eyes.

    The police officer used a poor choice of method to deter the ghoul that was filming this particular segment of the tragedy. There's nothing newsworthy about emergency workers pulling a mangled body from the wreckage.

    Imagine how the family would feel? What if it were your loved one? Would you want to see that sad moment paraded on You Tube like some macabre trophy?

    Yes, you are constitutionally protected; but its like yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Its just sick to film body recovery.

    The First Amendment has certain restrictions for a reason; this situation is one of them. Save your video for real news, you sick ghoul bastard. Give the victim some privacy.
    While most decent humans would agree with you here ( I hope ), if I am not mistaken the context of the this filming was the end result of a "high speed chase". This person (taking video) may have been just a morbid one, or someone that thinks these chases should only be used in the most limited circumstances, IE armed robbery, violent offender etc.. not used for the dumb a$$ that decides to run do to the 400 + unpaid parking tickets they have. My point is - context is important, but never more important than RIGHTS, period.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    As a former first responder, I can tell you that body recovery is a very emotional situation, even for the most jaded emergency workers. Out of respect for the victim of a fatality, and their family, emergency workers will do pretty much anything to protect the victim & family by shielding it from prying eyes.

    The police officer used a poor choice of method to deter the ghoul that was filming this particular segment of the tragedy. There's nothing newsworthy about emergency workers pulling a mangled body from the wreckage.

    Imagine how the family would feel? What if it were your loved one? Would you want to see that sad moment paraded on You Tube like some macabre trophy?

    Yes, you are constitutionally protected; but its like yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Its just sick to film body recovery.

    The First Amendment has certain restrictions for a reason; this situation is one of them. Save your video for real news, you sick ghoul bastard. Give the victim some privacy.
    I disagree. Would the cop have done this if the local TV news crews were there? Probably not as there would have been a big up roar and it would have been plastered on every TV station.

    While it may be disturbing to video tape this, he was behind the crime scene tape and NOT causing any disturbance. What scares me about this officer's actions is that he would probably abuse his authority in other situations, i.e. the lawful carry of a firearm. Also since this person was not doing anything wrong, I question the cop’s fitness for duty. If he gets hostile with a citizen over this, how would he handle a real police situation?

    As far as yelling fire in a crowded theater, that creates a disturbance and the potential for injuries. The camera man in this case did NOT create any disturbance, did not interfere with their investigation, and was lawfully in place.

    Again I find this officers actions very disturbing.
    Last edited by budlight; 06-03-2012 at 03:07 PM.

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    OK, but perhaps yelling 'fire' is not a good analogy. What he was doing wouldn't cause any PHYSICAL injuries, but the family's psychological scars are just as bad.

    We ran off ANY photographers, news or otherwise.

    Most professionals have the decency to NOT film body recoveries. We never had a problem with them.

    As the forensic photographer for the department, we took care to preserve the victim's dignity and privacy even in an official capacity. Some things are not necessary nor valuable.

    I have, however, done my best to obstruct the camera's view using blankets, flashlight shining in the lens or my body.

    I wouldn't violate your constitutional rights, but I'd make it damn difficult.

    Flame away; my first priority is the victim, then the family. News and ghouls are WAY down my list. Your family would agree, if it was your body.
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 06-03-2012 at 04:24 PM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  25. #25
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    In many regions, the county ME has autopsies open to the public. Digging someone out of a wreck seems a lot less intrusive than requiring that the state be permitted to chop someone up in full view of an interested audience.

    If I died in a car accident, and cops got involved, I know that given all my previous experiences with cops, I'd prefer it to be recorded so as to ensure that they didn't screw with me one last time.

    A final honor really, to keep them checked on. But that's just me.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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