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Waterford PD "You do have the Constitutional right to not videotape that"

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
I must disagree, Shadow Bear, it's not at all like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater has the potential for causing actual physical harm to patrons as they attempt to flee the fire by rushing the exits.

You and I may think it's ghoulish, but there is nothing illegal about the same behavior the "regular" news agencies would be doing if they were on-site.
 

Glock9mmOldStyle

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
2,038
Location
Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
As a former first responder, I can tell you that body recovery is a very emotional situation, even for the most jaded emergency workers. Out of respect for the victim of a fatality, and their family, emergency workers will do pretty much anything to protect the victim & family by shielding it from prying eyes.

The police officer used a poor choice of method to deter the ghoul that was filming this particular segment of the tragedy. There's nothing newsworthy about emergency workers pulling a mangled body from the wreckage.

Imagine how the family would feel? What if it were your loved one? Would you want to see that sad moment paraded on You Tube like some macabre trophy?

Yes, you are constitutionally protected; but its like yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Its just sick to film body recovery.

The First Amendment has certain restrictions for a reason; this situation is one of them. Save your video for real news, you sick ghoul bastard. Give the victim some privacy.

While most decent humans would agree with you here ( I hope ), if I am not mistaken the context of the this filming was the end result of a "high speed chase". This person (taking video) may have been just a morbid one, or someone that thinks these chases should only be used in the most limited circumstances, IE armed robbery, violent offender etc.. not used for the dumb a$$ that decides to run do to the 400 + unpaid parking tickets they have. My point is - context is important, but never more important than RIGHTS, period.
 

budlight

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
454
Location
Wyandotte, Michigan, USA
As a former first responder, I can tell you that body recovery is a very emotional situation, even for the most jaded emergency workers. Out of respect for the victim of a fatality, and their family, emergency workers will do pretty much anything to protect the victim & family by shielding it from prying eyes.

The police officer used a poor choice of method to deter the ghoul that was filming this particular segment of the tragedy. There's nothing newsworthy about emergency workers pulling a mangled body from the wreckage.

Imagine how the family would feel? What if it were your loved one? Would you want to see that sad moment paraded on You Tube like some macabre trophy?

Yes, you are constitutionally protected; but its like yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Its just sick to film body recovery.

The First Amendment has certain restrictions for a reason; this situation is one of them. Save your video for real news, you sick ghoul bastard. Give the victim some privacy.

I disagree. Would the cop have done this if the local TV news crews were there? Probably not as there would have been a big up roar and it would have been plastered on every TV station.

While it may be disturbing to video tape this, he was behind the crime scene tape and NOT causing any disturbance. What scares me about this officer's actions is that he would probably abuse his authority in other situations, i.e. the lawful carry of a firearm. Also since this person was not doing anything wrong, I question the cop’s fitness for duty. If he gets hostile with a citizen over this, how would he handle a real police situation?

As far as yelling fire in a crowded theater, that creates a disturbance and the potential for injuries. The camera man in this case did NOT create any disturbance, did not interfere with their investigation, and was lawfully in place.

Again I find this officers actions very disturbing.
 
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Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
OK, but perhaps yelling 'fire' is not a good analogy. What he was doing wouldn't cause any PHYSICAL injuries, but the family's psychological scars are just as bad.

We ran off ANY photographers, news or otherwise.

Most professionals have the decency to NOT film body recoveries. We never had a problem with them.

As the forensic photographer for the department, we took care to preserve the victim's dignity and privacy even in an official capacity. Some things are not necessary nor valuable.

I have, however, done my best to obstruct the camera's view using blankets, flashlight shining in the lens or my body.

I wouldn't violate your constitutional rights, but I'd make it damn difficult.

Flame away; my first priority is the victim, then the family. News and ghouls are WAY down my list. Your family would agree, if it was your body.
 
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Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
In many regions, the county ME has autopsies open to the public. Digging someone out of a wreck seems a lot less intrusive than requiring that the state be permitted to chop someone up in full view of an interested audience.

If I died in a car accident, and cops got involved, I know that given all my previous experiences with cops, I'd prefer it to be recorded so as to ensure that they didn't screw with me one last time.

A final honor really, to keep them checked on. But that's just me.
 

budlight

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
454
Location
Wyandotte, Michigan, USA
I’m not saying what he did was in good taste at all. Would I have done it? No. However there are many things humans are not going to agree with that someone else is doing. Just because they don’t agree with something doesn’t mean they can lawfully interfere with it. Just because a cop has a badge doesn’t give him the right to give unlawful commands.

Case and Point…….There are a number of people in the OC movement that feel carrying a long gun is going over board and asking for trouble. However when the cops unlawfully detain/arrest someone for carrying a long gun, the OC community attempts to support that person regardless of where they stand on it. (Note: This was just an example, and not something to get on the long gun debate.)

The cop in the case appears to have some serious issues. Upon approaching the camera man he didn’t even attempt to politely discuss the issue with him. He walked up and stated “You have two choices…….” The way he approached this situation shows he is a hot head and probably not fit to serve as a police officer.
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
OK, but perhaps yelling 'fire' is not a good analogy. What he was doing wouldn't cause any PHYSICAL injuries, but the family's psychological scars are just as bad.

We ran off ANY photographers, news or otherwise.

Most professionals have the decency to NOT film body recoveries. We never had a problem with them.

As the forensic photographer for the department, we took care to preserve the victim's dignity and privacy even in an official capacity. Some things are not necessary nor valuable.

I have, however, done my best to obstruct the camera's view using blankets, flashlight shining in the lens or my body.

I wouldn't violate your constitutional rights, but I'd make it damn difficult.

Flame away; my first priority is the victim, then the family. News and ghouls are WAY down my list. Your family would agree, if it was your body.

This argument is really a red herring. These type of videos are not common (if they exist at all, I've never heard of it). When "professionals" "run off" people with cameras they are violating their civil right and not doing it for the sake of some family members feelings. They just don't want to be critiqued by the public.
It's understandable. Not many people would like their work to be constantly recorded and critiqued, but if you want to be a LEO and you want to police the populous you better get used to it.
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
In many regions, the county ME has autopsies open to the public. Digging someone out of a wreck seems a lot less intrusive than requiring that the state be permitted to chop someone up in full view of an interested audience.

If I died in a car accident, and cops got involved, I know that given all my previous experiences with cops, I'd prefer it to be recorded so as to ensure that they didn't screw with me one last time.

A final honor really, to keep them checked on. But that's just me.

What did you think they would do to your lifeless, broken, bloody body? With firefighters, EMTs and such standing around? Body cavity search?:uhoh:

BTW, its 'observe', not 'record and post on You Tube'. Big difference.
 
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Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
This argument is really a red herring. These type of videos are not common (if they exist at all, I've never heard of it). When "professionals" "run off" people with cameras they are violating their civil right and not doing it for the sake of some family members feelings. They just don't want to be critiqued by the public.
It's understandable. Not many people would like their work to be constantly recorded and critiqued, but if you want to be a LEO and you want to police the populous you better get used to it.

I'm retired, now, but I would do it again, over & over, for the victim, and their family's sake. Nothing will change my mind on that. Flame on, I don't care a whit.

I don't mind being recorded while I work. A good portion of the populace is recorded while at work. Most of those cameras at retail stores aren't pointed at the shoppers; they're pointed at the employees...

I don't mind people recording public officials at work. Look at all the cameras in buses, police cars, etc.

I do mind people who don't treat victims with dignity. Same reason we don't publish rape victims' names. Because its the RIGHT thing to do.
 
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Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
What did you think they would do to your lifeless, broken, bloody body? With firefighters, EMTs and such standing around? Body cavity search?:uhoh:

BTW, its 'observe', not 'record and post on You Tube'. Big difference.

I'd put more trust in a coked out hobo's word than the average midwest cop's oath. There is no honor in most interactions I've had with police. There is honor to be had in keeping them in check.

I'd rather any interactions I'd have with police be recorded, whether I'm dead or alive. Arguably silly, but after years of this type of ****, I doubt my opinion will change.
 

NHCGRPR45

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
1,131
Location
Chesterfield Township, MI
As a former first responder, I can tell you that body recovery is a very emotional situation, even for the most jaded emergency workers. Out of respect for the victim of a fatality, and their family, emergency workers will do pretty much anything to protect the victim & family by shielding it from prying eyes.

The police officer used a poor choice of method to deter the ghoul that was filming this particular segment of the tragedy. There's nothing newsworthy about emergency workers pulling a mangled body from the wreckage.

Imagine how the family would feel? What if it were your loved one? Would you want to see that sad moment paraded on You Tube like some macabre trophy?

Yes, you are constitutionally protected; but its like yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Its just sick to film body recovery.

The First Amendment has certain restrictions for a reason; this situation is one of them. Save your video for real news, you sick ghoul bastard. Give the victim some privacy.

Agreed.

OK, but perhaps yelling 'fire' is not a good analogy. What he was doing wouldn't cause any PHYSICAL injuries, but the family's psychological scars are just as bad.

We ran off ANY photographers, news or otherwise.

Most professionals have the decency to NOT film body recoveries. We never had a problem with them.

As the forensic photographer for the department, we took care to preserve the victim's dignity and privacy even in an official capacity. Some things are not necessary nor valuable.

I have, however, done my best to obstruct the camera's view using blankets, flashlight shining in the lens or my body.

I wouldn't violate your constitutional rights, but I'd make it damn difficult.

Flame away; my first priority is the victim, then the family. News and ghouls are WAY down my list. Your family would agree, if it was your body.

Agreed.
 

Super Trucker

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
263
Location
Wayne County, MI.
What did you think they would do to your lifeless, broken, bloody body? With firefighters, EMTs and such standing around? Body cavity search?:uhoh:

BTW, its 'observe', not 'record and post on You Tube'. Big difference.

In the Metro Detroit area they have been known to steal things, plant evidence and other not so nice stuff.

Sorry but I disagree with you on this one.
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
In the Metro Detroit area they have been known to steal things, plant evidence and other not so nice stuff.

Sorry but I disagree with you on this one.

That's pretty much why that's the only way you'd find me in Metro Detroit- dead.

Forgive my west Michigan mindset; that kind of crap is pretty rare out here....
 

WilDChilD

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
286
Location
Dewitt, Michigan, USA
As a former first responder, I can tell you that body recovery is a very emotional situation, even for the most jaded emergency workers. Out of respect for the victim of a fatality, and their family, emergency workers will do pretty much anything to protect the victim & family by shielding it from prying eyes.

The police officer used a poor choice of method to deter the ghoul that was filming this particular segment of the tragedy. There's nothing newsworthy about emergency workers pulling a mangled body from the wreckage.

Imagine how the family would feel? What if it were your loved one? Would you want to see that sad moment paraded on You Tube like some macabre trophy?

Yes, you are constitutionally protected; but its like yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Its just sick to film body recovery.

The First Amendment has certain restrictions for a reason; this situation is one of them. Save your video for real news, you sick ghoul bastard. Give the victim some privacy.

I didnt think the victum was dead. What if they were working on getting her out of the car and did something wrong. Like roll the car on her or some other mistake. I took the video like CYOA for the EMT's, LEO's, and firefighters. Nobody wants a video of them causing more harm because they didnt know what they were doing.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Like, don't like, it was legal.

Filming that 'accident' scene or OC, no difference in my view. This is not about the 'accident' but about that cop's reaction. Plain and simple.

Treating the victim with dignity and respect is good, the cop treating a bystander with no dignity or showing no respect seems to be OK to some around here. I get it, the cop did good in some folks view. Me, no way, he was way wrong and a thug cop at that time.
 

budlight

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
454
Location
Wyandotte, Michigan, USA
Like, don't like, it was legal.

Filming that 'accident' scene or OC, no difference in my view. This is not about the 'accident' but about that cop's reaction. Plain and simple.

Treating the victim with dignity and respect is good, the cop treating a bystander with no dignity or showing no respect seems to be OK to some around here. I get it, the cop did good in some folks view. Me, no way, he was way wrong and a thug cop at that time.

+1
 

budlight

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
454
Location
Wyandotte, Michigan, USA
I'm retired, now, but I would do it again, over & over, for the victim, and their family's sake. Nothing will change my mind on that. Flame on, I don't care a whit.

I don't mind being recorded while I work. A good portion of the populace is recorded while at work. Most of those cameras at retail stores aren't pointed at the shoppers; they're pointed at the employees...

I don't mind people recording public officials at work. Look at all the cameras in buses, police cars, etc.

I do mind people who don't treat victims with dignity. Same reason we don't publish rape victims' names. Because its the RIGHT thing to do.

So you are saying it was ok for the officer to give an unlawful command? Also you don't see a problem with the officers attitude on how he approached this?
 

Super Trucker

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
263
Location
Wayne County, MI.
That's pretty much why that's the only way you'd find me in Metro Detroit- dead.

Forgive my west Michigan mindset; that kind of crap is pretty rare out here....

I agree with that.

I was just giving an example of how people can think differently. You don't have that type of situation in your area so you don't need think that way.
 

budlight

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
454
Location
Wyandotte, Michigan, USA
I went through and re-read all posts. I see where you imply you wouldn’t handle it that way, but I don’t see where you state the officer was TOTALLY out of line on how he approached the situation. I don’t see where you state the officer over stepped his position of authority and violated someone’s rights. It appears that the officer is given some discount because of the perceived poor taste in what was being video recorded.

I assume that if he approached an OCer in a public park full of children he could handle the situation the same as a gun might offend some anti-gunners or scare little children???

Also I don’t see anywhere the acknowledgement that the officer likely has some psychological issues based on the way he approached the camera man and likely is not fit for duty.
 
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