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Thread: Prince Georges County gun buyback

  1. #26
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    which has no bearing on your post saying it's illegal.

    sorry, sarcasm doesn't make your post any more accurate.

    To help enlighten me please show me where the statute says 7 business days.

    I bow to your superior intellect, and apologize for questioning the logic and procedures of our Lords and Masters in Pikesville and Annapolis...
    It's the law Dreamer. Look it up..again.
    Last edited by swinokur; 06-11-2012 at 01:51 PM.

  2. #27
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Here's the follow-up news coverage. The morons think they had a booming success, removing "nearly 200 guns" from the possession of people who were never going to commit a crime with them anyway. It's no wonder the liberal municipalities are all going broke, they're run by financial idiots.

    And as far as the little back-and-forth spat at the end here... if you go back in the thread you can clearly see what happened, and Dreamer is right, at least as far as I believe most people in freedom-loving states would understand it.

    When I read the term "private sale," that means that I can buy or sell an item from or to another person privately. Face To Face has nothing to do with it, that's just geography and a lack of shipping. The obviously important part of the equation is that "private" has the opposite meaning of "public," meaning that there are no government papers or databases recording that transaction.

    Dreamer said private sales are illegal in Maryland. swinokur responded to a completely different question, saying that you may transfer Face To Face, which again, means nothing other than geography and lack of common carrier shipping. There is no significant difference between buying a gun from a dealer and a private person in Maryland, and that is the point that Dreamer was making.

    When you think about it, virtually ALL guns sales in the entire United States are between two private entities, the only exception being some rare government surplus sales. Current Administration desires notwithstanding, for the time being at least, all companies in the United States are privately owned, either by individuals or groups of individuals, but not the government (again, certain Administration "bailout" programs notwithstanding*). The important question is how much does the government stick their nose into these private transactions?

    JMHO, for what its worth.

    TFred

    * It's amazing how many exceptions to our non-socialistic society we have to make because of the current Administration...

  3. #28
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    TFred, Dreamer posted that all sales in MD must go through an FFL. That's not true and I corrected him.. As expected, he took his mistake and my correction personally.

    The issue was and is that you do not need an FFL to buy or sell a firearm in MD. Anything else is incidental to that.

    Does this clear it up?

  4. #29
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    TFred, Dreamer posted that all sales in MD must go through an FFL. That's not true and I corrected him.. As expected, he took his mistake and my correction personally.

    The issue was and is that you do not need an FFL to buy or sell a firearm in MD. Anything else is incidental to that.

    Does this clear it up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer
    Maryland does not allow private sales of handguns or "assault weapons" (termed "regulated firearms" under MD law). Private sales of these types of firearms must go through an FFL.
    The point is that even though his answer was not not technically 100% complete, there is essentially no difference between transferring the firearm via an FFL or the MSP, or any other government entity.

    IMHO, the only significant point of his post was the first sentence, the second, adding clarifying information was merely incomplete. It's not a matter of "he left out this option" to record the transfer, it's a matter of government records vs. actually private.

    I see your point, and it is good that we all understand now that there are other options besides an FFL for the government in Maryland to track their citizens' firearms transfers.

    Big Picture.

    TFred

  5. #30
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    No the difference was not his point. It was his post that you must use an FFL. Period.

    Not true.

    Yours seems to be something else.

    sarcasm duly noted.
    Last edited by swinokur; 06-11-2012 at 06:56 PM.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    § 5-123. Time for licensee to complete transactions.


    (a) Seven-day waiting period.- A licensee may not sell, rent, or transfer a regulated firearm until after 7 days following the time a firearm application is executed by the firearm applicant, in triplicate, and the original is forwarded by the prospective seller or transferor to the Secretary.
    (b) Completion required in 90 days.- A licensee shall complete the sale, rental, or transfer of a regulated firearm within 90 days after the firearm application was stamped by the Secretary as not being disapproved.

    No specific exemption is given to MSP-directly-facilitated transfers under MD law.

    So unless MSP is given exemption under some other section of MD Code for the facilitation of private transfers, the 7-day waiting period for "regulated firearm" would apply to them just like it would to any other "licessee"...

    Since the courts have ruled that the "7 days" of the MD "waiting period" is "business days" and not calendar days, it would ALWAYS span at least one weekend (sometimes two, depending on when the application is submitted) and therefore can actually stretch out to as much 12 calendar days...


    Of course, we all know that MSP routinely exempts itself from MD Code Requirements, Circuit Court rulings and even SCotUS Case Law Precedent, and also depending on the person they are dealing with (if you are "connected" the MSP can "make special provisions" for you in MD).

    So it is entirely possible that you have facilitated a private transfer of "regulated firearms" in MD in under 7 days, and possibly even done more than one in a 30-day period, because from the tone of most of your posts, it's pretty safe to assume you are a member of the "anointed class" in MD, and are either politically connected, have familial connections, or are current or retired MD LE, or you somehow have obtained an "unrestricted" MD PCH (those rare birds get exempted from most of the restrictions on purchase and transfer in MD...)

    But I don't know for sure, because people in MD like to keep that sort of thing pretty close to their chest, for whatever reason...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-11-2012 at 07:02 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  7. #32
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    MD Designated Collectors may transfer more than one firearm in a 30 day period. I am a mortal just like you.

    Since the courts have ruled that the "7 days" of the MD "waiting period" is "business days" and not calendar days, it would ALWAYS span at least one weekend (sometimes two, depending on when the application is submitted) and therefore can actually stretch out to as much 12 calendar days..
    .



    enlighten me with the cite

    Last edited by swinokur; 06-11-2012 at 07:08 PM.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    MD Designated Collectors may transfer more than one firearm in a 30 day period. I am a mortal just like you.

    .



    enlighten me with the cite


    MSP's Purchase permit office for Regulated Firearms is not open on Saturday and Sunday. The "7 day waiting period" is how long MSP has to process an app. They don't have to process an app on a day they are not open for business. Therefore, it's 7 BUSINESS days, not 7 calendar days.

    I should remind people that you should NEVER try to "understand" MD laws--just KNOW them as written. I admit to not doing this, with regards to the intricacies of "private sales" and making the mistake of trying to "understand" the laws by reading them, and somehow missing the obscure section about private transfers through MSP.

    My training and background in logic, rational thought, and dealing with the laws of every other Mid-Atlantic State sometimes get in the way of groking MD firearm law, because most of it defies rational thought, flies in the face of Federal Case Law precedent, and is in direct violation of the US Constitution and sometimes even MD Law itself...

    I bow to "swinokur's" tremendous ability for accepting and defending the mind-numbing cognative dissonance of the MD Criminal Code.

    I don't envy this ability, but I understand that it must be tough for him to reconcile the illegal laws of his home state with things like Fundamental Human Rights, rulings from the SCotUS, and basic human decency. I'll try to not ask such cognitive dissonance-producing questions in the future.

    Please accept my humble apologies, Swinokur.

    I didn't toss this "red pill" into the forum for you to grab-it was for other people, who aren't nearly as familiar with the Matrix-like "reality" that is the MD legal system...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  9. #34
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    No the difference was not his point. It was his post that you must use an FFL. Period.

    Not true.

    Yours seems to be something else.

    sarcasm duly noted.
    I expressed my understanding of what he posted, clearly indicating that it was my opinion. I am quite relieved to see that you actually have the indisputable and final word on what another poster was thinking as he posted.

    You should probably be a very rich person.

    TFred

  10. #35
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    If I may add something here....

    The Maryland annotated code is frustrating enough. Lets try not to get into a ******* match.

    I think swinokur was just confused.

    When I tell people back home in Maryland that I can open carry a pistol all over downtown Pittsburgh, they look at me like I just walked out of a UFO and Im speaking in numbers.
    Especially when I describe how OC laws (or lack thereof) in many states protect OC

    Its not that they are stupid, they just have no hands on experience and can hardly imagine something being so legal.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

  11. #36
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Also, we must remember the FUNDAMENTAL ATTITUDE that Pikesville (the MSP) takes toward firearms ownership of citizens as evidenced by the terminology they use in their procedures and in statute.

    When you apply to purchase a "regulated firearm" in MD, if you pass the background investigation, the dealer is not notified by MSP that you are "approved" for purchase.

    They are notified that you are "NOT DISAPPOROVED".

    There are only TWO answers that MSP gives when doing a background check for firearms purchases in MD--"disapproved" (meaning you are rejected, because you somehow are a "prohibited person"), and "NOT DISAPPROVED" (meaning it's OK to sell you a gun).

    NOWHERE in MD law, or in the procedures of the MSP's purchase investigation policy does it say that they will ever "approve" a firearms purchase by a citizen.

    Perhaps this is because the MD Constitution has no RKBA clause, and therefore does not recognize this fundamental human right. The State feels in it's cold sociopathic heart that it simply can NOT "approve" of anyone but cops and military owning guns, so it uses this little linguistic ploy to re-enforce this mindset that gun ownership is subject to the whim of the State, and that even if you are "allowed" to purchase a firearm, you're still not really "approved" to have it--it's just that they can't come up with a concrete reason to restrict your rights at that specific time...

    Remember, folks--words have MEANING and POWER. They create the illusory reality under which societies sometimes function. And the "reality" in Maryland is that unless you are part of some super-secret-squirrelly handshake club of the wealthy and well-connected, you are NOT seen as a real human being with rights and dignity, and any "rights" you have are extended to you only begrudgingly by the State, until they can dream up a reason to restrict them...

    I hate this state. The laws make no sense--not just gun laws, but vehicle registration laws, business law, tax laws, even the laws that regulate tobacco and alcohol make absolutely NO SENSE in MD unless you accept the premise that the entirety of the MD Criminal Code is designed to protect criminal enterprises, perpetuate the oligarchical ruling class, oppress the poor, the disenfranchised, the ignorant and those who are not "connected", and punish and entrap honest, hard-working, Freedom-loving citizens.

    That, dear friends is the only logical explanation for the state of the legal system in the PRM.

    And due the fact that the citizens of this state have been innundated with propaganda, oppression, and brutality at the hands of their "government" non-stop for nearly 350 years, the majority of the residents here actually BELIEVE that they are untrustworthy of having these fundamental human rights, and that the State MUST keep it's boot heel on the necks of the People to keep them "in line".

    "Jim Crow" works two ways, folks. And in the eyes of the MD government and MD LE, the slaves never really got their freedom, they just got loose. And sadly, most citizens here actually agree with that concept.

    They should change the state flag to a pointy white cone with two holes in it, and the State Song should be changed to "Pikesville Uber Alles". Then at least there would be some honesty in MD government...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-12-2012 at 03:13 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  12. #37
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    I'm going to close by telling you I have purchased more than a dozen handguns in MD and on every purchase the MSP 77-R was back in 7 calendar days, not 7 work days. I guess MSP broke the law.I know you'll come back with a diatribe on MSP corruption and oligarchies.

    Or maybe I am special.

    BTW how many firearms have you purchased in MD?

    And BTW. where is the cite?

    sheesh Dreamer.

    cite :

    2010 Maryland Code
    PUBLIC SAFETY
    TITLE 5 - FIREARMS
    Subtitle 1 - Regulated Firearms
    Section 5-123 - Time for licensee to complete transactions.




    § 5-123. Time for licensee to complete transactions.


    (a) Seven-day waiting period.- A licensee may not sell, rent, or transfer a regulated firearm until after 7 days following the time a firearm application is executed by the firearm applicant, in triplicate, and the original is forwarded by the prospective seller or transferor to the Secretary.
    Last edited by swinokur; 06-12-2012 at 12:56 PM.

  13. #38
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin Hutchison
    I love when they state crime has rosen. Why dont they compare the population of the area with rising crime? More people is more crime.
    If someone is being intellectually honest, when they say "crime has risen" they're not talking about the raw numbers but rather the rate, which is generally expressed as number of crimes per 100,000 people.

    If you'd like to browse the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, here's their online UCR data tool.
    One of the glaring omissions is the city of Chicago.
    I can make an educated guess as to why they don't report their crime data...
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

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