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    hypothetical question

    I was conversing with the wife and she brought up a question that made us think.

    What are the consequences of some one obtaining possession of your weapon while u open carry in a legal place.I responded that it would fall under fire arm negligence.

    What other consequences could and how do u respond to said situation. Please understand in no way do I ever plan to loose my fire arm or end up in that kind of problem. Just thinkin out loud

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wbinsk View Post
    I was conversing with the wife and she brought up a question that made us think.

    What are the consequences of some one obtaining possession of your weapon while u open carry in a legal place.I responded that it would fall under fire arm negligence.

    What other consequences could and how do u respond to said situation. Please understand in no way do I ever plan to loose my fire arm or end up in that kind of problem. Just thinkin out loud
    Guess that would depend on the meaning of "obtained".

    If you are meaning took/stole through decietful or forceful means. I do not know how that could fall under negligence, any more than some one stealing your car and the thief having a wreck and harming someone.

    I would think it safe to say there are hundreds/thousands of crimes every year in the U.S. with stolen weapons. I do not believe I have ever heard of the rightful owner of those weapons ever being prosecuted or charged for negligence. Not saying it hasn't/won't be tried. Just that I've never heard of it.

    But let's not give the antis any ideas. Shhhhhhhhhhhh.
    The price of freedom is on the wall.

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    Yea we understand the stolen would probably have no affect on u . We meant the decitful use of our weapon. As an example I'm checking out at the grocery store and the man behind see opportunity and motive to take my hand gun and hold up the cashier. Would that be seen as negligence for giving him the opportunity to take my fire arm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wbinsk View Post
    Yea we understand the stolen would probably have no affect on u . We meant the decitful use of our weapon. As an example I'm checking out at the grocery store and the man behind see opportunity and motive to take my hand gun and hold up the cashier. Would that be seen as negligence for giving him the opportunity to take my fire arm.
    I doubt it. In that situation, he's still stealing your firearm. IANAL, but the way I see it, it'd only be negligence if you took your holster off and set it somewhere that someone else could grab it easily. If they take it from your holster while you're wearing it, whether by force or subterfuge, it's theft.

    As always, check with your lawyer to be sure.

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    Interesting theoretical question.

    What if a coconut fell from a tree and killed you?

    What if a shark killed you?

    What if you were hit by lightning?

    What if you died in a car accident?

    Nobody get mad, this is a polite query with a point

    150 people a year are killed by falling coconuts.

    Ok, only 6 are killed by sharks.

    24,000 people are killed by lightning each year.

    1.2 MILLION people are killed by cars worldwide.


    BUT

    I have never heard of a SINGLE open carrier being disarmed. So speculating on the potential legal issues is worrying about something that will:

    1. Likely never happen, but if it does
    2. It is almost a statistical guarantee that it will not be you

    SO breathe easy, statistically you are extremely safe!

    Besides, if you carry a retention style holster, in the extremely unlikely event that someone TRIES to take your weapon, they will VERY likely fail, unless they kill or disable you first, something else I have never heard of with OC.

    Yet here is an interesting statistic from http://www.policeone.com/close-quart...-R-I-Policies/

    "...the FBI says that of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to 8 percent."
    Why does this happen? Because police are much more likely to stick their nose into other people's business. It is their "job". Not to mention the fact that 11% of the people killed by police are innocent bystanders, compared to 2% for civilian shootings, since civilians are much more likely to be prosecuted for mistakes, they use way more discretion in application of force.....

    Yes, I did ramble on a bit
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wbinsk View Post
    Yea we understand the stolen would probably have no affect on u . We meant the decitful use of our weapon. As an example I'm checking out at the grocery store and the man behind see opportunity and motive to take my hand gun and hold up the cashier. Would that be seen as negligence for giving him the opportunity to take my fire arm.
    If it is a concern either CCW or don't carry....simple.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

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    It wasn't a concern...the title clearly states hypothetical question. I presented it to the forum to initiate conversation and open minded thinking as to the concequenes and response of a legally armed citizen if caught in that situation. So the simple minded attitude shown was not appreciated OC for ME.

    Thank you for the statistic peterarthur. Very interesting fact to bring up to those that have mentioned disarming of an OC'er as a basis for the argument against OC'ing.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wbinsk View Post
    It wasn't a concern...the title clearly states hypothetical question. I presented it to the forum to initiate conversation and open minded thinking as to the concequenes and response of a legally armed citizen if caught in that situation. So the simple minded attitude shown was not appreciated OC for ME.

    Thank you for the statistic peterarthur. Very interesting fact to bring up to those that have mentioned disarming of an OC'er as a basis for the argument against OC'ing.
    Personal insults are a serious violation of OCDO rules.

    Hypothetical questions are the bane of the forum, particularly when they not only are rare but less than a true concern as presented.

    There has been one (1) verified, confirmed cite of an OCer being relieved of his gun and shot in modern times any where in the USA. LEO, security and military excluded. The few others thought to qualify have been debunked.
    http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470871
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-04-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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    Yeah it happened at least once. It may happen again. But there is no doubt about the amount of unarmed people who are killed by BGs everyday.
    For me it comes down to the choice of either floating through life hoping... Or trying to be as prepared as possible to give myself a better chance...

    No one is guarantying you couldn't possible be charged if someone takes your gun and commits a crime with it. It is ludicrous but it might happen. You have to figure out if the risks is worth it just like all of us. Maybe you'll go through life like most people and won't ever have need of a gun. Or maybe something devastating will happen to someone you could have protected.

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    I've figured out my stance on carrying a fire arm. I've been carrying both in defense of this country and for personal defense since I was legal to. The fear of something happening is not of major concern to me. My wife just brought up the question while we were quizing each other on gunlaws on our road trip. And I felt I didn't have a good enough answer for her.

    I wasn't making a personal insult. I was just informing OC for ME that I didn't appreciate him blowing of my question so easily. And if I'm not allowed to express my grievenses on a public forum in a thread I started, and in an extremely polite manner, then I'm afraid you are violating my 1st amendment right. Which sounds very hypocritical for a forum that takes such a stark stand on protecting rights and freedoms to blow off one so easily.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wbinsk View Post
    I've figured out my stance on carrying a fire arm. I've been carrying both in defense of this country and for personal defense since I was legal to. The fear of something happening is not of major concern to me. My wife just brought up the question while we were quizing each other on gunlaws on our road trip. And I felt I didn't have a good enough answer for her.

    I wasn't making a personal insult. I was just informing OC for ME that I didn't appreciate him blowing of my question so easily. And if I'm not allowed to express my grievenses on a public forum in a thread I started, and in an extremely polite manner, then I'm afraid you are violating my 1st amendment right. Which sounds very hypocritical for a forum that takes such a stark stand on protecting rights and freedoms to blow off one so easily.
    I understand asking the question, seeking answers and am reasonably sure that you did not intend the insult as it came across.

    That said, the 1st Amendment and the others stand as a limitation on the federal government, not as a limitation on states or private property such as OCDO. By registering and posting here, you irrevocably agree to the Forum Rules.

    You were not being "blown off", but reminded of civilities.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterarthur
    I have never heard of a SINGLE open carrier being disarmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot
    There has been one (1) verified, confirmed cite of an OCer being relieved of his gun and shot in modern times any where in the USA.
    I realize you're addressing slightly different concerns...

    * I've read a news report of one OC guy in (IIRC) Michigan who was in a stop-n-rob when it was robbed by a feral teen who immediately went for the guy's gun & shot him with it... he died.
    [Said critter was caught, along with his accomplice, & though they were both in the 16yo range when the crime was committed, they're being charged as adults.]

    * Then there's the armed robbery of a guy here in Milwaukee (MKE) a couple summers ago. Criminal held the guy at gunpoint & forced him to hand over his pistol. At the time, only OC was legal. Nobody shot.

    * I've read a news report about one man near Cleveland (IIRC) who was temporarily disarmed, but another citizen got the pistol back before the criminal ran off. Nobody shot.

    * And I've read an account (not a news report) of a big-box greeter who for whatever stupid reason thought it'd be a dandy idea to sneak up behind a guy who was OC & try to take his pistol. The greeter had surgery later that day. Didn't get the gun, citizen was fine, police got the real story from bystanders & security video.

    Other than the one here in Milwaukee, where the criminal forced the citizen to hand over the gun (made him take it out of the holster), all of those could have been stopped by a retention holster & some situational awareness.
    And compared to the hundreds of thousands of people who carry every day, these reports are nothing.
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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wbinsk View Post

    What are the consequences of some one obtaining possession of your weapon while u open carry in a legal place.I responded that it would fall under fire arm negligence.
    I have never even pondered on this question. The key to prevent this is situational awareness ALL THE TIME, PERIOD. If while I am Open Carrying, someone somehow, because of my LACK of whats going on around me, my lack of situational awareness, takes my firearm away from me, its my fault, period. Its like asking, what happens if your firearm accidently discharges, ther are NO accidental discharges, only NEGLEGENT discharges.
    A man does not stumble upon integrity or accidentally find himself being faithful to God, he does it intentionally.
    Ephesians 6:12- For Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I realize you're addressing slightly different concerns...

    * I've read a news report of one OC guy in (IIRC) Michigan who was in a stop-n-rob when it was robbed by a feral teen who immediately went for the guy's gun & shot him with it... he died.
    [Said critter was caught, along with his accomplice, & though they were both in the 16yo range when the crime was committed, they're being charged as adults.]

    * Then there's the armed robbery of a guy here in Milwaukee (MKE) a couple summers ago. Criminal held the guy at gunpoint & forced him to hand over his pistol. At the time, only OC was legal. Nobody shot.

    * I've read a news report about one man near Cleveland (IIRC) who was temporarily disarmed, but another citizen got the pistol back before the criminal ran off. Nobody shot.

    * And I've read an account (not a news report) of a big-box greeter who for whatever stupid reason thought it'd be a dandy idea to sneak up behind a guy who was OC & try to take his pistol. The greeter had surgery later that day. Didn't get the gun, citizen was fine, police got the real story from bystanders & security video.

    Other than the one here in Milwaukee, where the criminal forced the citizen to hand over the gun (made him take it out of the holster), all of those could have been stopped by a retention holster & some situational awareness.
    And compared to the hundreds of thousands of people who carry every day, these reports are nothing.
    Yep - very different concerns - talking about snatch and grabs. They are almost as rare as two horned unicorns.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Yep - very different concerns - talking about snatch and grabs. They are almost as rare as two horned unicorns.
    Ever rarer is the quadracorn....:P
    A man does not stumble upon integrity or accidentally find himself being faithful to God, he does it intentionally.
    Ephesians 6:12- For Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richieg150 View Post
    Ever rarer is the quadracorn....:P
    Wish I'd thought of that - it's twice as good.

    I am so behind the curve - there really is such a beast!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZJBtwejA4Y
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-05-2012 at 10:54 PM. Reason: added
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    What are the consequences of someone, while you're having a steak at Lonestar Steakhouse, obtaining your steak knife and stabbing his dinner companion with it. Do you share any responsibility?

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    What are the consequences of someone, while you're having a steak at Lonestar Steakhouse, obtaining your steak knife and stabbing his dinner companion with it. Do you share any responsibility?
    Just MY opinion..... If the Knife was provided by the Steakhouse, at your table like all the others, and someone grabbed it and stabbed someone, I dont see how you could be held responsible. BUT..... if YOU brought in, lets say a BUCK knife and IT was on the table and was grabbed, and somebody was stabbed, or it was in your belt and was taken, or in a pouch and was taken.... then you could be held responsible, because you were neglegent in the care of the knife. You could say that it was an accident that it was taken from you, just like a accidental discharge of a firearm, but just like the accidental discharge, there are NO accidental discharges only neglegent... You would have been neglegent with reguards to YOUR knife, in your care.
    A man does not stumble upon integrity or accidentally find himself being faithful to God, he does it intentionally.
    Ephesians 6:12- For Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wbinsk View Post
    Yea we understand the stolen would probably have no affect on u . We meant the decitful use of our weapon. As an example I'm checking out at the grocery store and the man behind see opportunity and motive to take my hand gun and hold up the cashier. Would that be seen as negligence for giving him the opportunity to take my fire arm.
    Please understand that this is considered a deadly force assault, even if the attacker is unsuccessful in securing your firearm. You are then the victim. If you have the means in your area train on firearms retention...even if you lawfully carry concealed. Up close and personal defensive tactics are a love of mine and I finally found an instructors course recently that fit into my unconventional and simple to use/maintain mindset.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 06-06-2012 at 10:23 PM.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wbinsk View Post
    Yea we understand the stolen would probably have no affect on u . We meant the decitful use of our weapon. As an example I'm checking out at the grocery store and the man behind see opportunity and motive to take my hand gun and hold up the cashier. Would that be seen as negligence for giving him the opportunity to take my fire arm.
    How do you know that his intention is to rob the cashier?

    Taking your firearm would be felony assault, correct?

    If her were successful in "obtaining" your firearm, that would make him an armed felon, correct?

    Whaddya mean "the stolen would probably have no effect on u"? The stolen would probably have a HUGE effect on u as u would probably have a massive hole involuntarily placed in your cranium.

    You ask what I would hypotherically do to someone who "obtained" (understatement of the year) my firearm?

    I'd hypothetically shoot them with my back-up as they were committing the felony of assault with a deadly weapon for assaulting me and using my primary weapon to do it while armed.

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    Ask a hypothetic question and you get a hypothetic answer. If it hits a hypothetic nerve, get over it.

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    If they steal it from you easily I question the retention on your holster, I use a simple Uncle Mike's holster with a strap that snaps on the side of the holster, I've had friends try to take it off of me, short of standing right behind me facing the same direction as me it's not something they do without me being made very aware. If someone gets your gun away from you without you knowing or being able to put up any resistance don't even consider carrying.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    If they steal it from you easily I question the retention on your holster, I use a simple Uncle Mike's holster with a strap that snaps on the side of the holster, I've had friends try to take it off of me, short of standing right behind me facing the same direction as me it's not something they do without me being made very aware. If someone gets your gun away from you without you knowing or being able to put up any resistance don't even consider carrying.
    Haven't said it in awhile so I'm overdue: You'd sooner try to grab a rattle snake's tongue - lot less painful too.

    Warning: very graphic
    http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Haven't said it in awhile so I'm overdue: You'd sooner try to grab a rattle snake's tongue - lot less painful too.

    Warning: very graphic
    http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm
    Holy crap-olah!

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    If they steal it from you easily I question the retention on your holster, I use a simple Uncle Mike's holster with a strap that snaps on the side of the holster, I've had friends try to take it off of me, short of standing right behind me facing the same direction as me it's not something they do without me being made very aware. If someone gets your gun away from you without you knowing or being able to put up any resistance don't even consider carrying.
    Training can help overcome equipment failures but, one MUST train on firearms retention. I've yet to find a holster that guarantees it will defeat determined attempts at disarmament 100% of the time. The reality is that safety devices can and do fail. A thought I picked up when attending my DT Instructor's course was to start considering holster retntion devices and learn what it takes to disarm the wearer to help me learn how to provide a retention technique specific for that end-user. I discovered that the most simple techniques are best as is being aware of how your own holster is defeated.

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