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Thread: To act in another's defense or not

  1. #1
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    To act in another's defense or not

    Preemptive apologizes.

    I know this has to have been covered before. I know it is highly subjective. I know that many people believe no-one can REALLY know what they are going to do until it happens. I know no advice given is to be taken as legal advice.
    If you do feel like sharing your thoughts.... what would you do in the following scenario?


    You OCing in line, perhaps 3-4 people back, to make a purchase at a store. A BG bust in the door, runs up to the cashier and points a gun in her face and demands all the cash in her drawer and a pack of smokes for the road. He never points his gun at you or gives anyone else any instructions.

    What should you do?

  2. #2
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Depends.

    Is he looking around? Calm? Tweaking? Focused solely on the cashier/money?

    Rough plan for that situation is, toss keys to the side, behind him, so he'll look the other way.... If he's armed and the weapon is in play, and not just at his side or something, if I'm close enough, I'm going for a CNS shot. Ie, from 3 feet away, I have enough reach to put a round through his brain. But that's best case scenario, and it never happens how you expect it.


    More likely is one or two hoods, who run in, and try to grab the register...


    If no one is in imminent harm, then obviously my actions would be more relaxed.. But if someone is in immediate danger, then immediate action is called for.

    It's a personal choice... and I don't think I'd be able to handle the idea that I had an opportunity to save someone, but waited, and got someone killed instead.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

  3. #3
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Depends.

    Is he looking around? Calm? Tweaking? Focused solely on the cashier/money?

    Rough plan for that situation is, toss keys to the side, behind him, so he'll look the other way.... If he's armed and the weapon is in play, and not just at his side or something, if I'm close enough, I'm going for a CNS shot. Ie, from 3 feet away, I have enough reach to put a round through his brain. But that's best case scenario, and it never happens how you expect it.


    More likely is one or two hoods, who run in, and try to grab the register...


    If no one is in imminent harm, then obviously my actions would be more relaxed.. But if someone is in immediate danger, then immediate action is called for.

    It's a personal choice... and I don't think I'd be able to handle the idea that I had an opportunity to save someone, but waited, and got someone killed instead.
    I would assume what I would GUESS to be a typical attitude by the BG. Nervous. Yelling at the cashier.
    It's hard to guess if the person is in "imminent harm" but he does have a gun pointed out his/her face.

    Thanks for input. And love your signature!

  4. #4
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    I would assume what I would GUESS to be a typical attitude by the BG. Nervous. Yelling at the cashier.
    It's hard to guess if the person is in "imminent harm" but he does have a gun pointed out his/her face.

    Thanks for input. And love your signature!
    The problem with engaging someone who has a firearm pointed directly AT someone, is the instinctive flinch reaction, which means that he's gonna pull the trigger.... Not good..

    EDIT: Hence the need for a distraction.

    Yes, the media will crucify you for 'executing' someone....But the reality is, even with 3-4 shots center mass, and assuming a hit on a major artery, you're still talking MINUTES that the person can still be a threat.

    From a legal standpoint, it's about using 'reasonable' force, so it doesn't matter if you shoot him in the leg, and he ends up bleeding out 5 minutes later, or you get a CNS hit and he drops right there... Dead is dead... While it might sound horrible, or look worse, the fact of the matter is, the threat was neutralized. It'd be same as someone driving a knife through the skull to the hilt. It'd look REALLY bad, and you'd be called a murderer and whatnot... But my conscious would be clear, and I'm sure everyone there would be glad that the threat is neutralized.
    Last edited by TechnoWeenie; 06-04-2012 at 03:09 AM.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Regular Member porterhouse83's Avatar
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    My answer is short. I could not allow myself to do nothing if another was in danger of being shot/stabbed. I could not live with myself.

  6. #6
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    You guys are good people. If someone I care about is ever on the other side of the barrel I hope dearly someone with your mentality is there. The honest truth is I've been standing in line many times having these very thoughts going through my head. The problem is our justice system. I battle with thoughts about what would happen to my family if I get charged for something. Who is going to put food on my sons plate. Not to mention the person who now has a gun in their face may very well have criticized OCers and even told people they can't enter their facility if they noticed they were OCing. I hope I have enough honor to risks that to save this possibly ungrateful person. But I just don't know.

  7. #7
    Regular Member porterhouse83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    You guys are good people. If someone I care about is ever on the other side of the barrel I hope dearly someone with your mentality is there. The honest truth is I've been standing in line many times having these very thoughts going through my head. The problem is our justice system. I battle with thoughts about what would happen to my family if I get charged for something. Who is going to put food on my sons plate. Not to mention the person who now has a gun in their face may very well have criticized OCers and even told people they can't enter their facility if they noticed they were OCing. I hope I have enough honor to risks that to save this possibly ungrateful person. But I just don't know.
    As a christian man I know in my heart even though someone may disagree with how I exercise my rights or judge me as a whole god would want me to protect my fellow man/woman.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by porterhouse83 View Post
    As a christian man I know in my heart even though someone may disagree with how I exercise my rights or judge me as a whole god would want me to protect my fellow man/woman.
    That, right there^^^

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    <snip> You OCing in line, perhaps 3-4 people back, to make a purchase at a store. A BG bust in the door, runs up to the cashier and points a gun in her face and demands all the cash in her drawer and a pack of smokes for the road. He never points his gun at you or gives anyone else any instructions.

    What should you do?
    Really? That does not even happen in the movies. C'mon man!
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    I would be just as likely to protect someone else as I would myself. It's a little different because if someone else were threatened I would likely have more opportunity to take cover, and ensure a clear shot, but possibly not. When I decided to carry it was as much because I couldn't watch someone else be attacked as it was because I thought I might be.

  11. #11
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    Always Be On Guard !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by gobbly View Post
    I would be just as likely to protect someone else as I would myself. It's a little different because if someone else were threatened I would likely have more opportunity to take cover, and ensure a clear shot, but possibly not. When I decided to carry it was as much because I couldn't watch someone else be attacked as it was because I thought I might be.
    DITTO That ! Seek Cover & evaluate imminent danger to myself/family/friends and be ***Prepared*** to eliminate the threatening issue if needed.

  12. #12
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    It depends on the situation, but I have been the one with the gun shoved in my stomach, and some dumb hero almost got me killed. I walked around a corner to find a man with a shotgun in a hospital. I was in uniform and he put it in my stomach, I stayed still as if he was going to shoot me he would have already did it. Some stupid old man decides to jump on his back, and in the process as I got the shotgun barrel just to the side of my body it went off. After cuffing the man, he never had any intention of shooting me, though he was looking for the man having an affair with his wife. Now this old idiot expected me to shake his hand, what a surprise he got that I was rather pissed.

    Our duty as civilians is not to enforce the law, but self defense, and sometimes defense of somebody else. If all the robber wants is money and smokes don't be poster child for the anti's.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Mark 1911's Avatar
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    In 1985 I was saved from what may have been a fatal beating by chains and brass knuckles by a private citizen who was willing to step in and intervene with a gun. I like to think I would do the same if I saw someone in that situation.

    I would also note that some state's laws also include the stopping of a forcible felony as a situation warranting use of deadly force. Here's a portion of the Indiana Code on use of force:

    IC 35-41-3-2
    Use of force to protect person or property
    Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
    (1) is justified in using deadly force; and
    (2) does not have a duty to retreat;
    if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
    Last edited by Mark 1911; 06-04-2012 at 02:31 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Really? That does not even happen in the movies. C'mon man!
    Really? Honestly I thought I was being realistic. Which part is not so?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It depends on the situation, but I have been the one with the gun shoved in my stomach, and some dumb hero almost got me killed. I walked around a corner to find a man with a shotgun in a hospital. I was in uniform and he put it in my stomach, I stayed still as if he was going to shoot me he would have already did it. Some stupid old man decides to jump on his back, and in the process as I got the shotgun barrel just to the side of my body it went off. After cuffing the man, he never had any intention of shooting me, though he was looking for the man having an affair with his wife. Now this old idiot expected me to shake his hand, what a surprise he got that I was rather pissed.

    Our duty as civilians is not to enforce the law, but self defense, and sometimes defense of somebody else. If all the robber wants is money and smokes don't be poster child for the anti's.
    Thank you for the honesty WW. I figure more people have your view point, as...uh...unpleasant as it may be to stomach, than will admit it.

    BTW you have no idea if that criminal would have shot you or not. A "uniformed" man got between him and whatever his illegal planning with a shotgun was. There's no way to know for sure what would have happened if you didn't get the unwanted help.

  15. #15
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    I would just seek cover and try to leave the area and call it in. In a situation like that, you don't know if the BG has an accomplice in the back of the store, you don't know if he has a real gun. So it's to your benefit not to intervene unless you literally have no choice and the BG is starting to look like he's going to eliminate witnesses.

    That's my take, FWIW.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Really? Honestly I thought I was being realistic. Which part is not so?
    A guy runs in...no busts in, apparently past 3-4 customers and you, whips out a pistol and robs the place. Day or night is irrelavent. Even in the movies the perp is casing the joint and looking for a 'one-on-one' with little chance of being seen or having to worry abou which of the 3-4 customers and you being a plain clothes cop or some dude packing heat.

    Me not being a criminal, my assumption is purely speculative....of course.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  17. #17
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A guy runs in...no busts in, apparently past 3-4 customers and you, whips out a pistol and robs the place. Day or night is irrelavent. Even in the movies the perp is casing the joint and looking for a 'one-on-one' with little chance of being seen or having to worry abou which of the 3-4 customers and you being a plain clothes cop or some dude packing heat.

    Me not being a criminal, my assumption is purely speculative....of course.
    Sorry I don't have much criminal experience. As far as criminal behavior my impressions come from security footage seen on the news and you tube. I tried to paint a picture based on that rather than the fictional "clever criminal" you always see on the movies.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Seems to me the best case is for the CLERK to be armed, and for anybody else in the place to be his/her backup.

    I don't know how likely it is for a robber to enter a place with 3 or 4 people in it... doesn't happen around here.

    Just curious, WalkingWolf. How did anyone get that close to you with a shotgun? While you were on duty, yet? <grin>
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    Seems to me the best case is for the CLERK to be armed, and for anybody else in the place to be his/her backup.

    I don't know how likely it is for a robber to enter a place with 3 or 4 people in it... doesn't happen around here.

    Just curious, WalkingWolf. How did anyone get that close to you with a shotgun? While you were on duty, yet? <grin>
    I think I explained that~But here goes again~I walked around a corner in a hallway of a hospital, ya know they didn't issue me see through wall vision with the uniform. He happened to be just approaching the same corner with gun in hand. Now I had no call, no warning, nothing to know he was there. Like most police officers I did not walk around with my gun in my hand. I assume the old man had been following him in the hallway.

    Sometimes a person is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it was my turn that day. After interviewing the man he apologized and said he would not have shot me, and that he accidentally pulled the trigger when jumped. Considering his lack of record and what his wife had to say I believed him. Drawing on him would have been STUPID, my best option was to talk until I could get a chance to grab the gun, or he gave it to me or other. The old man forced the situation trying to be a hero.

  20. #20
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I think I explained that~But here goes again~I walked around a corner in a hallway of a hospital, ya know they didn't issue me see through wall vision with the uniform. He happened to be just approaching the same corner with gun in hand. Now I had no call, no warning, nothing to know he was there. Like most police officers I did not walk around with my gun in my hand. I assume the old man had been following him in the hallway.

    Sometimes a person is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it was my turn that day. After interviewing the man he apologized and said he would not have shot me, and that he accidentally pulled the trigger when jumped. Considering his lack of record and what his wife had to say I believed him. Drawing on him would have been STUPID, my best option was to talk until I could get a chance to grab the gun, or he gave it to me or other. The old man forced the situation trying to be a hero.
    FWIW if you were a cop, you've kinda alluded to it, I agree with you 100%. I guar-an-ty you will NEVER see me playing hero to help a cop. Never.

  21. #21
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I think I explained that~But here goes again~I walked around a corner in a hallway of a hospital, ya know they didn't issue me see through wall vision with the uniform.
    I worked in hospitals for nearly 30 years, and every one I ever went into had mirrors on the corners so people would NOT run into each other. Maybe yours was different. I don't know. Yes, someone can sneak up on us in many ways and in many places, but most of us don't get any "call" or warning at all. We have to be situationally aware enough to avoid as much surprise as possible all by ourselves. Maybe you were counting on a "call" or warning a bit too much?

    and that he accidentally pulled the trigger when jumped. Considering his lack of record and what his wife had to say I believed him. Drawing on him would have been STUPID, my best option was to talk until I could get a chance to grab the gun, or he gave it to me or other. The old man forced the situation trying to be a hero.
    Not really... the old man had no way to read the mind of the man with the gun. He could just as easily have saved your life. This was a negligent discharge at best since the guy with the shotgun obviously had his finger on the trigger. Don't place blame on the wrong person, driven by hindsight.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A guy runs in...no busts in, apparently past 3-4 customers and you, whips out a pistol and robs the place. Day or night is irrelavent. Even in the movies the perp is casing the joint and looking for a 'one-on-one' with little chance of being seen or having to worry abou which of the 3-4 customers and you being a plain clothes cop or some dude packing heat.

    Me not being a criminal, my assumption is purely speculative....of course.
    There was an actual case, though I forget where, or when, when a guy attempted an armed robbery of a gun store.

    1: On the way in he walked around a marked patrol car parked in front of the store.
    2: The cop from the patrol car was standing right next to the counter chatting with the owner.
    3: All the employees, and the owner were openly armed.
    4: The store was packed with customers, most of whome were armed.

    Guy comes through the door, demands money from the clerk, and fires a shot to punctuate his point.

    He was shot by the cop, the owner, 2 clerks, and a customer, a total of 17 times.

  23. #23
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    He was shot by the cop, the owner, 2 clerks, and a customer, a total of 17 times.
    Stupid SHOULD be fatal. Please don't tell me this cretin survived all that...
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    Stupid SHOULD be fatal. Please don't tell me this cretin survived all that...
    Nope, had to hose him out.

    The incident actually made it on to an episode of "A 1,000 ways to die", though I heard of it years before that.

  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    There was an actual case, though I forget where, or when, when a guy attempted an armed robbery of a gun store.

    1: On the way in he walked around a marked patrol car parked in front of the store.
    2: The cop from the patrol car was standing right next to the counter chatting with the owner.
    3: All the employees, and the owner were openly armed.
    4: The store was packed with customers, most of whome were armed.

    Guy comes through the door, demands money from the clerk, and fires a shot to punctuate his point.

    He was shot by the cop, the owner, 2 clerks, and a customer, a total of 17 times.
    I was just going to point out that crime around openly armed citizens whether cops or LAC is rare, very, very rare. And the armed robberies that do happen there seldom is violence other than the pointing of the gun. Yes people are shot in robberies, and those make the news more than the hundreds that do not. Bearing arms is a right that carries a heavy responsibility, common sense should be at the top of that list. Nothing wrong with being prepared, but anti's are paranoid of gun owners let alone OCers. People that have the hero fantasy just encourage their paranoia.

    Another thought to keep in mind whether deciding open vs concealed is a scenario is more likely to happen with a CCer.

    Just my honest opinion want to be a hero, OC often and do it responsibly. The more people openly carrying the more crime is hindered.

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