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To act in another's defense or not

twoskinsonemanns

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Preemptive apologizes.

I know this has to have been covered before. I know it is highly subjective. I know that many people believe no-one can REALLY know what they are going to do until it happens. I know no advice given is to be taken as legal advice.
If you do feel like sharing your thoughts.... what would you do in the following scenario?


You OCing in line, perhaps 3-4 people back, to make a purchase at a store. A BG bust in the door, runs up to the cashier and points a gun in her face and demands all the cash in her drawer and a pack of smokes for the road. He never points his gun at you or gives anyone else any instructions.

What should you do?
 

TechnoWeenie

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Depends.

Is he looking around? Calm? Tweaking? Focused solely on the cashier/money?

Rough plan for that situation is, toss keys to the side, behind him, so he'll look the other way.... If he's armed and the weapon is in play, and not just at his side or something, if I'm close enough, I'm going for a CNS shot. Ie, from 3 feet away, I have enough reach to put a round through his brain. But that's best case scenario, and it never happens how you expect it.


More likely is one or two hoods, who run in, and try to grab the register...


If no one is in imminent harm, then obviously my actions would be more relaxed.. But if someone is in immediate danger, then immediate action is called for.

It's a personal choice... and I don't think I'd be able to handle the idea that I had an opportunity to save someone, but waited, and got someone killed instead.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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Depends.

Is he looking around? Calm? Tweaking? Focused solely on the cashier/money?

Rough plan for that situation is, toss keys to the side, behind him, so he'll look the other way.... If he's armed and the weapon is in play, and not just at his side or something, if I'm close enough, I'm going for a CNS shot. Ie, from 3 feet away, I have enough reach to put a round through his brain. But that's best case scenario, and it never happens how you expect it.


More likely is one or two hoods, who run in, and try to grab the register...


If no one is in imminent harm, then obviously my actions would be more relaxed.. But if someone is in immediate danger, then immediate action is called for.

It's a personal choice... and I don't think I'd be able to handle the idea that I had an opportunity to save someone, but waited, and got someone killed instead.

I would assume what I would GUESS to be a typical attitude by the BG. Nervous. Yelling at the cashier.
It's hard to guess if the person is in "imminent harm" but he does have a gun pointed out his/her face.

Thanks for input. And love your signature! :D
 

TechnoWeenie

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I would assume what I would GUESS to be a typical attitude by the BG. Nervous. Yelling at the cashier.
It's hard to guess if the person is in "imminent harm" but he does have a gun pointed out his/her face.

Thanks for input. And love your signature! :D

The problem with engaging someone who has a firearm pointed directly AT someone, is the instinctive flinch reaction, which means that he's gonna pull the trigger.... Not good..

EDIT: Hence the need for a distraction.

Yes, the media will crucify you for 'executing' someone....But the reality is, even with 3-4 shots center mass, and assuming a hit on a major artery, you're still talking MINUTES that the person can still be a threat.

From a legal standpoint, it's about using 'reasonable' force, so it doesn't matter if you shoot him in the leg, and he ends up bleeding out 5 minutes later, or you get a CNS hit and he drops right there... Dead is dead... While it might sound horrible, or look worse, the fact of the matter is, the threat was neutralized. It'd be same as someone driving a knife through the skull to the hilt. It'd look REALLY bad, and you'd be called a murderer and whatnot... But my conscious would be clear, and I'm sure everyone there would be glad that the threat is neutralized.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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You guys are good people. If someone I care about is ever on the other side of the barrel I hope dearly someone with your mentality is there. The honest truth is I've been standing in line many times having these very thoughts going through my head. The problem is our justice system. I battle with thoughts about what would happen to my family if I get charged for something. Who is going to put food on my sons plate. Not to mention the person who now has a gun in their face may very well have criticized OCers and even told people they can't enter their facility if they noticed they were OCing. I hope I have enough honor to risks that to save this possibly ungrateful person. But I just don't know.
 

porterhouse83

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Apr 13, 2012
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Wheat Ridge Colorado
You guys are good people. If someone I care about is ever on the other side of the barrel I hope dearly someone with your mentality is there. The honest truth is I've been standing in line many times having these very thoughts going through my head. The problem is our justice system. I battle with thoughts about what would happen to my family if I get charged for something. Who is going to put food on my sons plate. Not to mention the person who now has a gun in their face may very well have criticized OCers and even told people they can't enter their facility if they noticed they were OCing. I hope I have enough honor to risks that to save this possibly ungrateful person. But I just don't know.

As a christian man I know in my heart even though someone may disagree with how I exercise my rights or judge me as a whole god would want me to protect my fellow man/woman.
 

OC for ME

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<snip> You OCing in line, perhaps 3-4 people back, to make a purchase at a store. A BG bust in the door, runs up to the cashier and points a gun in her face and demands all the cash in her drawer and a pack of smokes for the road. He never points his gun at you or gives anyone else any instructions.

What should you do?
Really? That does not even happen in the movies. C'mon man!
 

gobbly

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May 28, 2012
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I would be just as likely to protect someone else as I would myself. It's a little different because if someone else were threatened I would likely have more opportunity to take cover, and ensure a clear shot, but possibly not. When I decided to carry it was as much because I couldn't watch someone else be attacked as it was because I thought I might be.
 

scott58dh

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Always Be On Guard !!!

I would be just as likely to protect someone else as I would myself. It's a little different because if someone else were threatened I would likely have more opportunity to take cover, and ensure a clear shot, but possibly not. When I decided to carry it was as much because I couldn't watch someone else be attacked as it was because I thought I might be.

DITTO That ! Seek Cover & evaluate imminent danger to myself/family/friends and be ***Prepared*** to eliminate the threatening issue if needed.
 

WalkingWolf

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It depends on the situation, but I have been the one with the gun shoved in my stomach, and some dumb hero almost got me killed. I walked around a corner to find a man with a shotgun in a hospital. I was in uniform and he put it in my stomach, I stayed still as if he was going to shoot me he would have already did it. Some stupid old man decides to jump on his back, and in the process as I got the shotgun barrel just to the side of my body it went off. After cuffing the man, he never had any intention of shooting me, though he was looking for the man having an affair with his wife. Now this old idiot expected me to shake his hand, what a surprise he got that I was rather pissed.

Our duty as civilians is not to enforce the law, but self defense, and sometimes defense of somebody else. If all the robber wants is money and smokes don't be poster child for the anti's.
 

Mark 1911

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In 1985 I was saved from what may have been a fatal beating by chains and brass knuckles by a private citizen who was willing to step in and intervene with a gun. I like to think I would do the same if I saw someone in that situation.

I would also note that some state's laws also include the stopping of a forcible felony as a situation warranting use of deadly force. Here's a portion of the Indiana Code on use of force:

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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Really? That does not even happen in the movies. C'mon man!

Really? Honestly I thought I was being realistic. Which part is not so?

It depends on the situation, but I have been the one with the gun shoved in my stomach, and some dumb hero almost got me killed. I walked around a corner to find a man with a shotgun in a hospital. I was in uniform and he put it in my stomach, I stayed still as if he was going to shoot me he would have already did it. Some stupid old man decides to jump on his back, and in the process as I got the shotgun barrel just to the side of my body it went off. After cuffing the man, he never had any intention of shooting me, though he was looking for the man having an affair with his wife. Now this old idiot expected me to shake his hand, what a surprise he got that I was rather pissed.

Our duty as civilians is not to enforce the law, but self defense, and sometimes defense of somebody else. If all the robber wants is money and smokes don't be poster child for the anti's.

Thank you for the honesty WW. I figure more people have your view point, as...uh...unpleasant as it may be to stomach, than will admit it.

BTW you have no idea if that criminal would have shot you or not. A "uniformed" man got between him and whatever his illegal planning with a shotgun was. There's no way to know for sure what would have happened if you didn't get the unwanted help.
 

sawah

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Jan 22, 2011
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I would just seek cover and try to leave the area and call it in. In a situation like that, you don't know if the BG has an accomplice in the back of the store, you don't know if he has a real gun. So it's to your benefit not to intervene unless you literally have no choice and the BG is starting to look like he's going to eliminate witnesses.

That's my take, FWIW.
 

OC for ME

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Really? Honestly I thought I was being realistic. Which part is not so?
A guy runs in...no busts in, apparently past 3-4 customers and you, whips out a pistol and robs the place. Day or night is irrelavent. Even in the movies the perp is casing the joint and looking for a 'one-on-one' with little chance of being seen or having to worry abou which of the 3-4 customers and you being a plain clothes cop or some dude packing heat.

Me not being a criminal, my assumption is purely speculative....of course.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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A guy runs in...no busts in, apparently past 3-4 customers and you, whips out a pistol and robs the place. Day or night is irrelavent. Even in the movies the perp is casing the joint and looking for a 'one-on-one' with little chance of being seen or having to worry abou which of the 3-4 customers and you being a plain clothes cop or some dude packing heat.

Me not being a criminal, my assumption is purely speculative....of course.

:D Sorry I don't have much criminal experience. As far as criminal behavior my impressions come from security footage seen on the news and you tube. I tried to paint a picture based on that rather than the fictional "clever criminal" you always see on the movies.
 

MamaLiberty

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Seems to me the best case is for the CLERK to be armed, and for anybody else in the place to be his/her backup. :)

I don't know how likely it is for a robber to enter a place with 3 or 4 people in it... doesn't happen around here.

Just curious, WalkingWolf. How did anyone get that close to you with a shotgun? While you were on duty, yet? <grin>
 

WalkingWolf

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Seems to me the best case is for the CLERK to be armed, and for anybody else in the place to be his/her backup. :)

I don't know how likely it is for a robber to enter a place with 3 or 4 people in it... doesn't happen around here.

Just curious, WalkingWolf. How did anyone get that close to you with a shotgun? While you were on duty, yet? <grin>

I think I explained that~But here goes again~I walked around a corner in a hallway of a hospital, ya know they didn't issue me see through wall vision with the uniform. He happened to be just approaching the same corner with gun in hand. Now I had no call, no warning, nothing to know he was there. Like most police officers I did not walk around with my gun in my hand. I assume the old man had been following him in the hallway.

Sometimes a person is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it was my turn that day. After interviewing the man he apologized and said he would not have shot me, and that he accidentally pulled the trigger when jumped. Considering his lack of record and what his wife had to say I believed him. Drawing on him would have been STUPID, my best option was to talk until I could get a chance to grab the gun, or he gave it to me or other. The old man forced the situation trying to be a hero.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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I think I explained that~But here goes again~I walked around a corner in a hallway of a hospital, ya know they didn't issue me see through wall vision with the uniform. He happened to be just approaching the same corner with gun in hand. Now I had no call, no warning, nothing to know he was there. Like most police officers I did not walk around with my gun in my hand. I assume the old man had been following him in the hallway.

Sometimes a person is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it was my turn that day. After interviewing the man he apologized and said he would not have shot me, and that he accidentally pulled the trigger when jumped. Considering his lack of record and what his wife had to say I believed him. Drawing on him would have been STUPID, my best option was to talk until I could get a chance to grab the gun, or he gave it to me or other. The old man forced the situation trying to be a hero.

FWIW if you were a cop, you've kinda alluded to it, I agree with you 100%. I guar-an-ty you will NEVER see me playing hero to help a cop. Never.
 
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