To act in another's defense or not

WalkingWolf said:

I think I explained that~But here goes again~I walked around a corner in a hallway of a hospital, ya know they didn't issue me see through wall vision with the uniform.

Click to expand...

I worked in hospitals for nearly 30 years, and every one I ever went into had mirrors on the corners so people would NOT run into each other. Maybe yours was different. I don't know. Yes, someone can sneak up on us in many ways and in many places, but most of us don't get any "call" or warning at all. We have to be situationally aware enough to avoid as much surprise as possible all by ourselves. Maybe you were counting on a "call" or warning a bit too much?

and that he accidentally pulled the trigger when jumped. Considering his lack of record and what his wife had to say I believed him. Drawing on him would have been STUPID, my best option was to talk until I could get a chance to grab the gun, or he gave it to me or other. The old man forced the situation trying to be a hero.

Click to expand...

Not really... the old man had no way to read the mind of the man with the gun. He could just as easily have saved your life. This was a negligent discharge at best since the guy with the shotgun obviously had his finger on the trigger. Don't place blame on the wrong person, driven by hindsight.

OC for ME said:

A guy runs in...no busts in, apparently past 3-4 customers and you, whips out a pistol and robs the place. Day or night is irrelavent. Even in the movies the perp is casing the joint and looking for a 'one-on-one' with little chance of being seen or having to worry abou which of the 3-4 customers and you being a plain clothes cop or some dude packing heat.

Me not being a criminal, my assumption is purely speculative....of course.

Click to expand...

There was an actual case, though I forget where, or when, when a guy attempted an armed robbery of a gun store.

1: On the way in he walked around a marked patrol car parked in front of the store.
2: The cop from the patrol car was standing right next to the counter chatting with the owner.
3: All the employees, and the owner were openly armed.
4: The store was packed with customers, most of whome were armed.

Guy comes through the door, demands money from the clerk, and fires a shot to punctuate his point.

He was shot by the cop, the owner, 2 clerks, and a customer, a total of 17 times.

Small_Arms_Collector said:

He was shot by the cop, the owner, 2 clerks, and a customer, a total of 17 times.

Click to expand...

Stupid SHOULD be fatal. Please don't tell me this cretin survived all that...

MamaLiberty said:

Stupid SHOULD be fatal. Please don't tell me this cretin survived all that...

Click to expand...

Nope, had to hose him out.

The incident actually made it on to an episode of "A 1,000 ways to die", though I heard of it years before that.

Small_Arms_Collector said:

There was an actual case, though I forget where, or when, when a guy attempted an armed robbery of a gun store.

1: On the way in he walked around a marked patrol car parked in front of the store.
2: The cop from the patrol car was standing right next to the counter chatting with the owner.
3: All the employees, and the owner were openly armed.
4: The store was packed with customers, most of whome were armed.

Guy comes through the door, demands money from the clerk, and fires a shot to punctuate his point.

He was shot by the cop, the owner, 2 clerks, and a customer, a total of 17 times.

Click to expand...

I was just going to point out that crime around openly armed citizens whether cops or LAC is rare, very, very rare. And the armed robberies that do happen there seldom is violence other than the pointing of the gun. Yes people are shot in robberies, and those make the news more than the hundreds that do not. Bearing arms is a right that carries a heavy responsibility, common sense should be at the top of that list. Nothing wrong with being prepared, but anti's are paranoid of gun owners let alone OCers. People that have the hero fantasy just encourage their paranoia.

Another thought to keep in mind whether deciding open vs concealed is a scenario is more likely to happen with a CCer.

Just my honest opinion want to be a hero, OC often and do it responsibly. The more people openly carrying the more crime is hindered.

twoskinsonemanns said:

FWIW if you were a cop, you've kinda alluded to it, I agree with you 100%. I guar-an-ty you will NEVER see me playing hero to help a cop. Never.

Click to expand...

X2

COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO Bashing

Freedom1Man said:

X2

I figure cops have body armor and have abused me enough, I might even look for popcorn if I saw a cop in trouble.

Click to expand...

Cops may have body armor and some, not all, may abuse citizens. However, they are still human beings and as a man and one who professes to faith in a Supreme Being, I cannot stand by and watch another human being lose their life. Especially if it is within my power to prevent it.

I ask you this, sir, is your answer the image we really want to present to the public that reads this site?

Freedom1Man said:

X2

I figure cops have body armor and have abused me enough, I might even look for popcorn if I saw a cop in trouble.

Click to expand...

Heh, I guess I will never understand such an attitude. I don't judge when someone's life is in danger. They could be my best friend, or my worst enemy, I still think they have the right to live, and would do what I thought necessary to help them in that endeavor.

It's prudent to consider though, when helping the police you must be aware of the risks and take extra precautions. Assume there are more police on the way, and they will not know the details of the situation. They will not know if you are the good guy or the bad guy. Though I have a deep desire to protect the life of all, I won't put my own life in undue jeopardy.

Well,,,

OC for ME said:

Really? That does not even happen in the movies. C'mon man!

Click to expand...

Not too long ago... and reported/discussed on OCDO.

Bad guy enters a store with a shotgun, points/threatens the clerk for money.
The difference from the OP is BG also pointed/threatened other customers too.
An armed LAC shot the BG when he got the safe chance,,, Killed him!

Small_Arms_Collector said:

Nope, had to hose him out.

The incident actually made it on to an episode of "A 1,000 ways to die", though I heard of it years before that.

Click to expand...

It happened about 30 mins north of me..

He was shot 3 times CM and 1x in the arm.

gobbly said:

Heh, I guess I will never understand such an attitude. I don't judge when someone's life is in danger. They could be my best friend, or my worst enemy, I still think they have the right to live, and would do what I thought necessary to help them in that endeavor.

It's prudent to consider though, when helping the police you must be aware of the risks and take extra precautions. Assume there are more police on the way, and they will not know the details of the situation. They will not know if you are the good guy or the bad guy. Though I have a deep desire to protect the life of all, I won't put my own life in undue jeopardy.

Click to expand...

COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO Bashing

So before I discuss what I would do, I have to agree with the first point made: You DO NOT honestly know what you are going to do in a situation like this until it happens.

Second, for a BG to walk straight up and threaten the cashier, but not pay mind to anyone else? I really don't see that happening. From my mind set, if I were to do this, I would make everyone get on the ground first, save the cashier, with heads down, then resume with the cashier.

Third, depending on the BG, I would or wouldn't react to it. I refuse to be a victim, but I'm not going to cause someone to die over my actions either. I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I knew someone had honestly died due to my actions, when all the person wanted was the money, but not initial intent on shooting (example: finger away from trigger) It takes less than a second to respond. Now if they're jumpy, a distraction is caused, and they shoot in the direction of the keys (as given in someone else's opinion), then I would react at that moment, knowing they could possibly be a bit too jumpy now, and wouldn't take much for the finger to slip.

Any good crime is going to be a little more thought out, as in there'd be fewer people around, or he would address the other customers as well.

I know this situation doesn't truly apply, because we KNOW there's enemies here, and we don't know who they are, but in Iraq I was in a convoy and suddenly came under attack from an RKG-3 (an anti-tank grenade). After assessing the situation, ensuring everyone was fine, immediately started searching for targets (but didn't see anything given too many "innocents" around and too much dust), and the first reactions were rage and a loud "YOU F*ING MISSED." Later the video was shown on youtube. Man makes me mad to this day....

But my only point in this scenario: You train hard for something, going over every situation, every possibility, then when the moment comes, your training kicks in but doesn't always end up exactly how you rehearsed or expected.

Tunnel vision is the biggest problem in any high stress situation. It is hard to train for it, you just can't fake stress, fear, anger and keeping a level head without having real stress, fear, and anger. Making the wrong reaction could leave the good willed citizen kicking dirt and looking at the ground trying to look the parent of a deceased cashier in the face. I don't say there is never a situation where using deadly force to save another is not necessary, but it just is not that feasible. First off most BGs want as little hassle in their crime as possible, that is why they use a gun. Most do not want to kill anybody, that means more jail time or even the needle or chair. I have no problem with blowing away bad guys committing violent crimes, I just have a problem with the innocent victims getting killed too.

I think in the scenario that the OP has outlined it would depend on what the robber is doing. Does he just want money or is he threatening to shoot people? If he just wants to rob the place and leave I would not confront him or let him know I am armed. If he began to threaten people or started shooting, then I would find cover if possible and stop the threat. I also could not stand by and see innocent people die when I have the means to stop it.

Many, many years ago when I was working at a savings & loan in Denver, we were robbed one afternoon. A man walked in the bank, fired two shots into the camera, turned around to the teller line and demanded money. I was at a desk, not on the teller line, but it was very, very scary. We didn't know if he was going to start shooting people. He was probably there all of two minutes. Fortunately he only damaged the camera housing, not the camera itself, so the whole thing was on tape. Very different cameras than the ones in use today. He continued his crime spree and was soon caught. We were then closed for the rest of the day while the crime scene was investigated and we gave statements. What was so interesting was the different descriptions of the robber; apparently we didn't all see the same person! I guess adrenaline does funny things to our individual perceptions!

Ruby said:

I guess adrenaline does funny things to our individual perceptions!

Click to expand...

+1!

That is definitely the truth. Not quite adrenaline, I'd say, but rather our imaginations. I think a lot of times we let our own thoughts get out of hand, and we want to paint the worst possible picture for the smallest things (not to say this was SMALL, because that is a rather scary situation, but I think you understand the point i'm getting at ). Plus if you over hear one person in any way, you want to top their story, so you make it an even bigger situation ("he was almost TEN FEET! There was no way I could beat him, he looked like a HUGE Arnold Schwarzenegger!") Hehe JMO!

Thanks to all of you for your opinions. I think they are all great.

It's interesting though to see some of your mentalities of "if all he wants is to rob innocent people of their money I would just let him go". (NOT talking about anyone specifically!)

I see it as a ever descending slide into unified weakness of our race. Life is a struggle yes. But if you decide you are going to cross over into the dark void of the non-attributing portion of society then the right thing to do for the strength our our race it to bring you back by force or expel you from our race. Exactly what percentage of the populous can be leeches instead of contributors before we extinguish ourselves?

A little off the exact topic but it jives I think.

I challenge you to get on some video site and look up robberies. Thugs stroll in even with other people around and take by force that which does not belong to them KNOWING (usually) no one is going to stop them.

twoskinsonemanns said:

Thanks to all of you for your opinions. I think they are all great.

It's interesting though to see some of your mentalities of "if all he wants is to rob innocent people of their money I would just let him go". (NOT talking about anyone specifically!)

Click to expand...

You're just not thinking clearly here. It's not up to you to keep a STORE from being robbed. They have something...guess what? Insurance. They don't need, or want you shooting anyone in their store. I'd suggest you go to a store and interview the manager and ask HIM if he'd want you to shoot a robber who is only taking money from the cash register and he'll tell you NO!

Now, if the robber started to eliminate witnesses, you are better served by fading into the background, getting armed (in your hand) and calling 911 and trying to exit the store and be a good witness. You do NOT know if the BG has an accomplice in the back of the store covering him (allowing him to be so bold as to run your scenario of back to shoppers, focus on cashier). You do NOT know if there is also a plainclothes cop in the store, who, seeing you draw, thinks you are part of the crime and shoots you.

It's too highly chaotic for you to think you can draw and shoot and immediately kill the BG saving everyone and get out of that unscathed. Your duty is to your family not to some corporation who is covered by insurance.

sawah said:

You're just not thinking clearly here. It's not up to you to keep a STORE from being robbed. They have something...guess what? Insurance. They don't need, or want you shooting anyone in their store. I'd suggest you go to a store and interview the manager and ask HIM if he'd want you to shoot a robber who is only taking money from the cash register and he'll tell you NO!

Now, if the robber started to eliminate witnesses, you are better served by fading into the background, getting armed (in your hand) and calling 911 and trying to exit the store and be a good witness. You do NOT know if the BG has an accomplice in the back of the store covering him (allowing him to be so bold as to run your scenario of back to shoppers, focus on cashier). You do NOT know if there is also a plainclothes cop in the store, who, seeing you draw, thinks you are part of the crime and shoots you.

It's too highly chaotic for you to think you can draw and shoot and immediately kill the BG saving everyone and get out of that unscathed. Your duty is to your family not to some corporation who is covered by insurance.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%! The money will be replaced by the insurance company, people CANNOT be replaced. If you are observant at all, you should be able to tell pretty quickly whether or not there is a threat to peoples' lives. Money is just that, money. It is not someone's mother, father, sister, brother, etc. The criminal is nervous already; I would not do something that would spook him and make him start shooting people. And as Sawah said, he may not be working alone. None of us can possibly know all the factors involved in any given situation.

For you, twoskinsonemann, to put down people who would not "do it your way" is inappropriate and not consistent with your supposed goal of getting other people's opinions. Don't come on here and ask for other peoples input then down them and tell them they're going to the "dark side" when their opinions don't agree with yours. If you want to play "Rambo", join the military and go to Asia, I'm sure they could use you.

sawah said:

I would just seek cover and try to leave the area and call it in. In a situation like that, you don't know if the BG has an accomplice in the back of the store, you don't know if he has a real gun. So it's to your benefit not to intervene unless you literally have no choice and the BG is starting to look like he's going to eliminate witnesses.

That's my take, FWIW.

Click to expand...

THIS^^^. If I have the chance I would usee my super ninja skills to slide up out of there. I will be a great witness for the cops when they show up.
IF the dude starts waving the gun around at everyone in the store and saying that he's gonna kill us all, well then. Situation changes and I will defend myself if possible. I expect every other adult in the store to draw their weapons and defend themselves too. If they aren't carrying firearms for their own personal protection? Tough. That is a choice they made for themselves and they can live with it.
I'm nobodys bodyguard.

Steve

Ruby said:

For you, twoskinsonemann, to put down people who would not "do it your way" is inappropriate and not consistent with your supposed goal of getting other people's opinions. Don't come on here and ask for other peoples input then down them and tell them they're going to the "dark side" when their opinions don't agree with yours. If you want to play "Rambo", join the military and go to Asia, I'm sure they could use you.

Click to expand...

I never put down anyone who "didn't do it my way". Also the "dark side" (not what I said) thing is a misunderstanding. Perhaps my post was unclear but I was referring to a person in a society who decides to quit being productive and turns to crime. Anyway thanks for the "if ya wanna play rambo...go to asia" crack....seems pretty childish.

sawah said:

You're just not thinking clearly here. It's not up to you to keep a STORE from being robbed. They have something...guess what? Insurance. They don't need, or want you shooting anyone in their store. I'd suggest you go to a store and interview the manager and ask HIM if he'd want you to shoot a robber who is only taking money from the cash register and he'll tell you NO!

Click to expand...

I'm trying to think clearly. I understand everything you said and agree with some of it. I just thinks it is a sorry mindset we have developed as a nation. I believe it does nothing to discourage crime when we say "just let him go insurance will cover it."

sawah said:

Now, if the robber started to eliminate witnesses, you are better served by fading into the background, getting armed (in your hand) and calling 911 and trying to exit the store and be a good witness.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your view point. I think MOST people would claim that if they were armed and close by and witnessed a BG blasting away innocent people (eliminating witnesses) they would not try to sneak away but try to save these innocent people.