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Thread: Interesting twist on OC'ers baiting police and recording the event

  1. #1
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Interesting twist on OC'ers baiting police and recording the event

    I don't know about you folks but when I see some of the videos on YouTube where it is pretty obvious that an OC'er has deliberately tried to bait police for the purpose of recording and posting the incident, it kinda rubs me the wrong way and makes me uncomfortable. An incidental, unexpected encounter where the OC'er was going about his business in a normal fashion when he is stopped is one thing, but a deliberate attempt to bait police simply to cause a heated exchange for posting is not something I like to see happen. It has been my take that this does not work in our favor.

    With that said, I ran across something posted by an individual over a week ago that really gave me pause and got me to thinking. I don't have the answer to this and have not formed any sort of opinion about it either so I thought I would just throw it out there for kicks. I also don't think this violates the rules of these forums but if it does, I expect this thread to be closed or removed.

    What this individual said when this topic was raised was this. "So how do you feel about police setting bait cars?"

    He makes an interesting point. Police do deliberately bait people in an attempt to weed out criminal activity so why should'nt citizens bait police to weed out the bad apples? This was his position and frankly from the surface, it make sense. We should monitor the actions of our public servants more than we do and this IS one way to do it.

    But as I said, I don't have the answer and I am pretty neutral on this one. What say you people?
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 06-05-2012 at 12:22 PM.
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    Regular Member William Fisher's Avatar
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    One can stand their ground and excert their rights, but still remain calm, soft spoken and polite. I think when they immediately go SCREAMING "AM I BEING DETAINED? AM I FREE TO GO?" That they look crazy and reflect bad on other OCers. I will say those things if I think it is a bad stop or if the LEO wants to do search or such but will act in a calm manner while doing so. The LEOs who sale drugs to someone then arrest them for buying them is different in that the LEO is doing something that would be illeagal for us to do. We (those who OC) are doing something leagl. How can doing something legal bait an LEO into doing something illegal? While many of those videos are posted by Richard Heads, They should have been left alone in the beginning.

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    It used to upset me as well when I would see or hear people doing this, but now it does not. It is a sad time we are living in here in the good old United States, and unfortunately too many "peace officers" want to deprive us of our rights. The fact that someone can walk in off the street (in some cases without the most basic of education, such as a highschool degree) and be deputized and given a gun and badge and told to go out and enforce the laws is beyond ridiculous. I believe everyone going into the field of law enforcement, corrections, parole, etc. should be mandated to have at the minimum an associates degree in criminal justice, with an emphasis on whatever field they plan to work in. This is why we see so many idiots with a badge these days, because there is no selection process whatsoever; and to be honest, if they want to allow these idiots to walk around knowing they don't have a clue about constitutional rights, or the moral and ethical ideals that are involved in dealing with citizens, then the governments that hire these people and the officers themselves deserve to be sued. These "peace officers" are not selling doughnuts or used tires, they are dealing with citizens of the United States of America, the land of the free, where our government is supposed to recognize and protect our rights.

    I have a feeling that we will continue to lose our rights, and will also continue to be treated like we are somehow less deserving of those rights than the government. We are turning into a utilitarianism state, a socialist wasteland where the "good" of the people is better than our "individual" rights, and it is extremely alarming to me, and I can't believe it isn't to everyone else as well. Just look at the federal government, they are so far beyond their constitutional limits that it is scary. Every alphabet agency, every law they pass that is not allowed for in the constitution, and nearly everything else they do is un-constitutional. The federal government was established by the "states." The states and the people have the higher authority under the constitution, and the federal government was only established for certain responsibilities, the main one being the defence of the several states. If we continue to allow the government to grow outside of it's constitutional constraints that the founders placed in the constitution for a very good reason (which we are now seeing why they placed those restraints, and the topic of this post is one) then we will have to record these individuals when they sh*t on our rights more and more. What these people are trying to do is teach them a lesson in the courts, because the judicial system is our last hope folks. The executive and legislative branches of our government are beyond repair, and if someone can't see that then I don't know what to say to help them

    I just want to add one thing. If it wasn't for these people, we would be in a much worse situation than we are now, because nobody would know about the unlawful, un-constitutional, un-american acts these officers commit. Go on Youtube and watch some of the Alex Jones movies, or some of the other movies on there about the government and our rights. Watch how these people are treated, right here in America! Would you believe that cops would walk up and down the street hitting people with batons, or spraying a crowd of peaceful protestors with pepper spray? Would you believe cops would wrap nun chuks around peoples arm and make them so tight that they intentionally snap peoples arms? Just go watch these videos, they will infuriate you. The way these people are treated is exactly why these people go out and try to get cops to violate their oath to uphold the constitution. I guaruntee if you were treated like some of the people in these videos, you would do whatever you could to get the truth out.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 06-05-2012 at 09:45 AM.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    If you're a cop and think someone is being stupid and trying to "bait you into doing something"... how stupid do you have to be to fall for it?
    The ONLY thing a cop has to do not to fall into that "trap" is to follow the law; do what the law says he must, not do what the law doesn't authorize him to do.

    Whereas "don't talk to cops" is good legal advice for the average citizen, "don't talk to non-criminals" is just as applicable to officers.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-05-2012 at 02:33 PM. Reason: grammar

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    KYGlockster wrote
    The fact that someone can walk in off the street (in some cases without the most basic of education, such as a highschool degree) and be deputized and given a gun and badge and told to go out and enforce the laws is beyond ridiculous.
    I disagree with that statement. I can't offer proof that is wrong but for that to happen it must be a hick burg.

    I do agree with this statement.

    I believe everyone going into the field of law enforcement, corrections, parole, etc. should be mandated to have at the minimum an associates degree in criminal justice, with an emphasis on whatever field they plan to work in.
    The problem I have with it is that the degrees for that stuff is gotten a college or university where the courses are taught by people that are either socialists or communists and brainwash the students.
    Last edited by jeeper1; 06-06-2012 at 01:42 PM. Reason: correcct spelling error. thx hammer6

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Note: I have not checked every state's minimum requirements for admission as an officer, but .....
    Every state I've checked so far, shows that only a General Educational Development certificate is required for admission into the academy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Note: I have not checked every state's minimum requirements for admission as an officer, but .....
    Every state I've checked so far, shows that only a General Educational Development certificate is required for admission into the academy.
    Maybe that explains why Seattle has a problem with their police force.

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    Come on guys there are bad apples we all know that but I'm in school at UNC: Charlotte for criminal justice and the professors there may be research focused but they are all conservative, heck I even had a professor throw someone out of law enforcement operations class for being too liberal, it was quite funny. I have to say law enforcement should require a degree especially with the amount of laws out now, it's hell to remember all of those legal loopholes, force application, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeper1 View Post
    KYGlockster wrote
    The fact that someone can walk in off the street (in some cases without the most basic of education, such as a highschool degree) and be deputized and given a gun and badge and told to go out and enforce the laws is beyond ridiculous.
    I disagree with that statement. I can't offer proof that is wrong but for that to happen it must be a hick burg.

    I do agree with this statement.

    I believe everyone going into the field of law enforcement, corrections, parole, etc. should be mandated to have at the minimum an associates degree in criminal justice, with an emphasis on whatever field they plan to work in.
    The problem I have with it is that the degrees for that stuff is gotten a collage or university where the courses are taught by people that are either socialists or communists and brainwash the students.
    I am having trouble understanding your first statement. I never said it was "wrong" as you have stated in your reply; I said it was ridiculous. As for obtaining a degree in criminal justice from un-biased professors, I am in the process of doing that very thing right now. I am attending a local community college and every professor I have had thus far that has instructed my criminal justice classes has been conservative libertarians. I do however realize the world we are in is growing more into a utilitarian state every day, or at least using utilitarianism as an excuse to revoke our god given rights, and that most people who seek a college education, and especially master's degrees to teach at the college level do in fact seem to be of a socialist mindset and mentality. If we do not learn from our past we are destined to repeat it, and everyone has forgot about the men that founded this country, and the sacrifices they made. It is our duty to stop tyrannical governments, but we have somehow lost sight of our duties to the nation, and our constitution. Thomas Jefferson is certainly on a constant spin in his grave. I can't help but wonder just how dissapointed the founders would be in our nation, and the citizens of this nation that have allowed it to get this awful.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeper1 View Post
    I can't offer proof that is wrong but for that to happen it must be a hick burg.
    I've looked into a few local departments, and I live in a major metropolitan area with more than a dozen local police departments. Every one I have looked at requires only a highschool diploma or equivalent. Some say that preference is given to those holding a bachelors, but it is by no means a requirement.

    For the record, I think it should be required. Highschool and GED's are a joke once you find out what college is like

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    Baiting...

    We have a duty, as citizens, to "Test" our elected and appointed government officals. This is to make sure they are abiding by the restrictions we have put on them to develope a Civil Society.

    Now how we go about that is up to each person. Some will be bold in your face, others will be more suttle about it.

    Unfortunely, today, we have to "ambush" them to get their true response. I mean, in most cases if you know your being watched, you mind your P's and Q's. but your real colors come out when you think you are not being observed.

    So I guess the question is ... How do we get to see their real colors, unless we hide ours.

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    I think this is a very interesting concept. I had never thought about it in this light before. Why should cops complain about baiting when they do it?

    I still don't think I like the approach of "baiting" cops, but it makes it much less unpalatable now.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badey View Post
    I think this is a very interesting concept. I had never thought about it in this light before. Why should cops complain about baiting when they do it?

    I still don't think I like the approach of "baiting" cops, but it makes it much less unpalatable now.
    That was something like what I felt after reading what that person wrote. Police use bait cars to catch car thieves, female police dressed as hookers to catch johns, and a host of other baiting techniques. So I was thinking about this a little bit yesterday and something occurred to me.

    If you live in a nice little town where the local police are present, friendly, and non-abusive then one would think that there would be no reason to bait them. Just the normal vigilance (I know, define "normal") regarding police abuse or similar activities should suffice. But suppose your town has a police force that is abusive and frequently acts in an intimidating fashion, detaining citizens for no reason, demanding ID's, vehicle searches, cuffing of people carrying openly, etc. Perhaps baiting these officers would be a good thing to bring things to light and to a head.

    Apathy breeds transgressions and individual rights are usually the first items to suffer.
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    Regular Member Mark 1911's Avatar
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    A few years ago I was working in LaSalle County, Illinois. I had to drive through neighboring Grundy County on my way to work. The speed limit is 55 on a rural two-lane between Seneca, IL and Interstate 80, roughly a 10-mile stretch. Theres a lot of turns and a few hills along the way. Not too many places to pass. Unbelievable, but the cops were actually patrolling the highway on farm tractors with radar mounted on the tractor. The cops were driving these tractors 30 mph in a 55 zone, and clocking folks as they passed the tractors! Then the cops would call ahead to waiting squad cars that were ticketing people en masse. Baiting folks into speeding up by driving these snails on the highway, and then clocking folks in the middle of a pass. Now if that isn't as low as a snake's belly I don't know what is. Just plain wrong.

    On the other hand, folks who OC are prefectly legal. I can understand recording during an unwarranted stop. But going out and looking for trouble? Nah. If you have that kind of free time, grab the fishing pole or the golf clubs, or take the bike out for a spin. Practice your 2nd Amendment freedom and enjoy life in the process. But I am lucky to live in a town with cops that pretty mucy leave law-abiding folks to themselves. If the cops were singling out people for a perfectly legal activity, then that would be another situation entirely.
    Last edited by Mark 1911; 06-06-2012 at 09:49 AM.

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeper1 View Post
    KYGlockster wrote
    The fact that someone can walk in off the street (in some cases without the most basic of education, such as a highschool degree) and be deputized and given a gun and badge and told to go out and enforce the laws is beyond ridiculous.
    I disagree with that statement. I can't offer proof that is wrong but for that to happen it must be a hick burg.

    I do agree with this statement.

    I believe everyone going into the field of law enforcement, corrections, parole, etc. should be mandated to have at the minimum an associates degree in criminal justice, with an emphasis on whatever field they plan to work in.
    The problem I have with it is that the degrees for that stuff is gotten a collage or university where the courses are taught by people that are either socialists or communists and brainwash the students.
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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=SouthernBoy;1765829]I don't know about you folks but when I see some of the videos on YouTube where it is pretty obvious that an OC'er has deliberately tried to bait police for the purpose of recording and posting the incident, it kinda rubs me the wrong way and makes me uncomfortable. An incidental, unexpected encounter where the OC'er was going about his business in a normal fashion when he is stopped is one thing, but a deliberate attempt to bait police simply to cause a heated exchange for posting is not something I like to see happen. It has been my take that this does not work in our favor.
    QUOTE]

    The options are there for those being baited... ignore or take...... live with the outcome.
    It's funning to hear folks complaining about the tactics they employ... not directed at the OP.. I now he's not LE.....
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    Every time you OC is there not a chance you'll get harassed based on the stories we've heard?

    Let me ask you this. What would you do if almost EVERY TIME you OC you got a MWAG called and detained?

    Would you keep OC'ing?

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Every time you OC is there not a chance you'll get harassed based on the stories we've heard?
    Let me ask you this. What would you do if almost EVERY TIME you OC you got a MWAG called and detained?
    Would you keep OC'ing?
    Absolutely.

    Eventually one party or the other is gonna get tired of playing that game. I suspect the cops are going to get tired first when they find they're the ones being played. Heck, I'd even go so far as to call them and tell them where and when I expect to be someplace so we could all coordinate our schedules. Now, I might be ten places in a day... and sometimes I might change my mind right in the middle of where I'm going and go someplace else... but at least I'd be trying to be accommodating to their busy schedules.

    What if someone were the first black family to move into a nice upper class white neighborhood and every time they went outside for a walk the cops were called to respond to a "suspicious black man walking around" call? Should they just stay in the house so as not to upset those uppity white folks?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-06-2012 at 03:33 PM.

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    1. I would never bait the police. I've got a better use for donuts than that.

    2. Most, perhaps not all, of the negative OCer vs. LEO encounters I've either read about or seen on YouTube seem to be a case of a particular LEO not being well-versed in the law and perceiving the OCer as encroaching on a police prerogative.

    3. To support #2 above: At one time, most of the pistol permits issued in this state had wording to the effect, "This permit does not allow you to open carry as an officer." Most of the sheriffs' departments have eliminated that wording.

  20. #20
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Agent19;1766731]
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    I don't know about you folks but when I see some of the videos on YouTube where it is pretty obvious that an OC'er has deliberately tried to bait police for the purpose of recording and posting the incident, it kinda rubs me the wrong way and makes me uncomfortable. An incidental, unexpected encounter where the OC'er was going about his business in a normal fashion when he is stopped is one thing, but a deliberate attempt to bait police simply to cause a heated exchange for posting is not something I like to see happen. It has been my take that this does not work in our favor.
    QUOTE]

    The options are there for those being baited... ignore or take...... live with the outcome.
    It's funning to hear folks complaining about the tactics they employ... not directed at the OP.. I now he's not LE.....
    I watch "Bait Car" from time to time because it is kind of funny. And let's face it, those guys are like any other criminals. They don't want to get caught and when they are caught they only play the "I'm sorry" game because they're sorry they were caught... not because they stole a vehicle.

    I guess my take on the deliberate police baiting might be this. If the baitor is just out to see if he can catch a fish (LEO) by doing something "exotic" (in their minds???) I still find that to be distasteful. However, if the police in a town or county are clearly abusing their lent power and authority and there is a chain of this behavior, then go for it. Catch them in the act and make them look the fool.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post

    I watch "Bait Car" from time to time because it is kind of funny. And let's face it, those guys are like any other criminals. They don't want to get caught and when they are caught they only play the "I'm sorry" game because they're sorry they were caught... not because they stole a vehicle.

    I guess my take on the deliberate police baiting might be this. If the baitor is just out to see if he can catch a fish (LEO) by doing something "exotic" (in their minds???) I still find that to be distasteful. However, if the police in a town or county are clearly abusing their lent power and authority and there is a chain of this behavior, then go for it. Catch them in the act and make them look the fool.
    And yet depending on where you are, simply OCing is viewed as "exotic" and thus one could argue that OCing at all is "baiting" the cops.

    The way I see it is like this, it is impossible to "bait" cops. Why is that? Because their very job is enforce the law and respect our rights. As such, unless you do something like verbal judo to try and "trick" them, it is impossible to bait the officer into either breaking the law or violating your rights. If they get "baited" because they didn't properly know the law, well that is bait that is a failure on their part (something that they can all too easily get away with sadly, since they only have to "think" they are enforcing a law and not actually know). And I really don't see how one can argue that they were baited into violating someone else's rights.

    Now this doesn't mean I agree with how some of those people act in the videos, simply that it is impossible to bait LAW enforcement into breaking the law.
    Last edited by Aknazer; 06-06-2012 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Fixed Broken Quote

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    I once believed as many here, and was in firm disagreement with those that appeared to seek confrontation for its own sake. I still do not like or condone those who's purpose seems to be to gain attention and not to convey the message we seek to expand and educate the general public about: The normalization of openly carrying firearms. When one seeks to "bait" the police, the message (which should be the foremost of our goal) takes a back seat to the means of expressing it.

    That being said, another member here once opened my eyes with a simple explanation. I'll paraphrase, but the general idea is not mine. I'm not even sure I agree with it fully, but it makes sense and I can understand the reasoning of it.

    "Bait" only works as bait if the quarry is attracted to it. It only catches what takes the hook. You can place a grocery bag of cocaine in front of my house, but it will fail to "catch" me, as I have no desire to have anything to do with it. You can put a Brittany Spears CD on a fishing line, and I doubt you'll catch any bass. Bait cars do not "catch" law abiding citizens with no propensity towards theft.

    Likewise, intelligent, professional police officers who are knowledgeable about their jobs and respect citizen's rights cannot be "caught" by baiting, as bait only works on those that bite. The only "takers" to bite the hook of a provocative OC'er are those who have no respect for the public position they hold and choose to enforce their opinion, their inflated sense of superiority, and their position of authority.

    So, while I will never "bait" police because my intention is to forward the agenda and promote the message, I can understand those who do.

    I don't agree with the tactic, and think those that "bait" have the wrong idea, but I understand it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27
    Likewise, intelligent, professional police officers who are knowledgeable about their jobs and respect citizen's rights cannot be "caught" by baiting, as bait only works on those that bite. The only "takers" to bite the hook of a provocative OC'er are those who have no respect for the public position they hold and choose to enforce their opinion, their inflated sense of superiority, and their position of authority.
    Very well put.
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    Since I posed the question, the OP referenced, I would like to give my view on it. We all agree that OC is a form of "keeping and bearing arms", in fact in MO(where the incident occurred that led to my question) the only way to legally carry, without State acquired permission, is openly. There are a myriad of reasons why people may choose to exercise this right. A few might be, for defense, to normalize the practice, or even to attempt to provoke LE. The simple fact is that all are legitimate reasons to carry. To be even more blunt the why someone carries is immaterial. As long as their exercise of their rights does not harm another or directly hamper someone else from exercising their rights, their reasons are no ones business but their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Snip
    I believe everyone going into the field of law enforcement, corrections, parole, etc. should be mandated to have at the minimum an associates degree in criminal justice, with an emphasis on whatever field they plan to work in. This is why we see so many idiots with a badge these days, because there is no selection process whatsoever; and to be honest, if they want to allow these idiots to walk around knowing they don't have a clue about constitutional rights, or the moral and ethical ideals that are involved in dealing with citizens, then the governments that hire these people and the officers themselves deserve to be sued. These "peace officers" are not selling doughnuts or used tires, they are dealing with citizens of the United States of America, the land of the free, where our government is supposed to recognize and protect our rights.

    I have to disagree with you here. I believe such a requirement would only strengthen the belief of some LE that they are a separate(and superior) class than the plain and average citizenry. We all ready have a problem with LEOs being "militarized". They dress like the military, use military grade weapons, and practice military techniques. I don't want to add to the mental image, some have, with the addition of "special" requirements.

    If a person chooses to enter a career in LE, they should be expected to learn the requirements and limits of their job on their own, and if they fail to do so, be held accountable for it. I had to for my job, why should they be any different.

    I realize that we can never return to the days of Andy Taylor, but to be honest, I would trust a simple and honest sheriff with no formal training more than I would some mall ninja(ladened with tacticool) who thinks just because he can pass a test, he is endowed with some special privilege or power.(Holy crap, that's some long sentences )
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