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Thread: Questions regarding organizing open carry gathering in North Bay CA

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    Questions regarding organizing open carry gathering in North Bay CA

    I am thinking of trying to get a large group of people, at least 10 or so, to all get together in the North Bay somewhere all open carrying long guns. I figure since we are currently unable to open carry handguns we should let it be know that we are still here and that we are proud to be supports of open carry. I haven't decided exactly where yet, it would probably be based on where everyone who wants to go is located to make it as easy as possible on all involved. Basically I'm not sure how to go about organizing this, who to contact to make sure that there isn't trouble, or if there is anybody or any organization who already does this sort of thing on a regular basis; similiar to a motorcycle club that puts on events for its members. Any feedback/suggestions/comments are appreciated. Also if anybody is interested in doing this, I was thinking probably towards the end of July and most likely in the Santa Rosa/San Rafael area.

    Thanks in advance for any help with this.

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    Damn, nevermind. I didn't realize that AB1527 had passed. I just noticed. I hate this state.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alxndrxvier View Post
    Damn, nevermind. I didn't realize that AB1527 had passed. I just noticed. I hate this state.
    AB1527 isn't law ... yet

    Please don't OC LongGuns in Urban California and essentially guarantee its passage!

    COMPLETE BILL HISTORY


    BILL NUMBER : A.B. No. 1527
    AUTHOR : Portantino
    TOPIC : Firearms.

    TYPE OF BILL :
    Active
    Non-Urgency
    Non-Appropriations
    Majority Vote Required
    State-Mandated Local Program
    Fiscal
    Non-Tax Levy

    BILL HISTORY
    2012
    May 17 Referred to Com. on PUB. S.
    May 3 In Senate. Read first time. To Com. on RLS. for assignment.
    May 3 Read third time. Passed. Ordered to the Senate. (Ayes 44. Noes 29.
    Page 4661.)
    Apr. 19 Read second time. Ordered to third reading.
    Apr. 18 From committee: Do pass. (Ayes 12. Noes 5.) (April 18).
    Apr. 11 Re-referred to Com. on APPR.
    Apr. 10 Read second time and amended.
    Apr. 9 From committee: Do pass as amended and re-refer to Com. on APPR.
    (Ayes 4. Noes 2.) (March 27).
    Mar. 8 Re-referred to Com. on PUB. S.
    Mar. 7 From committee chair, with author's amendments: Amend, and re-refer
    to Com. on PUB. S. Read second time and amended.
    Feb. 2 Referred to Com. on PUB. S.
    Jan. 24 From printer. May be heard in committee February 23.
    Jan. 23 Read first time. To print.

  4. #4
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alxndrxvier View Post
    I am thinking of trying to get a large group of people, at least 10 or so, to all get together in the North Bay somewhere all open carrying long guns. I figure since we are currently unable to open carry handguns we should let it be know that we are still here and that we are proud to be supports of open carry.
    At the risk of offending a new member to the board, I would say you havent put much thought or 'figuring' into your objective.

    You have to honestly answer the following questions;

    What is it that you are attempting to accomplish? What is the probable outcome of this activity?

    If you are promoting a liberty in an area where it has been rejected- what net positive can you attain? In other words, can participating in this activity expand the exercise or instigate legislative or municipal efforts to restrict it?

    If the law says that one is exempted as a particular class or during designated activity, why would you carry a long gun when a holstered handgun is still an option?

    I will also leave readers with this...

    “Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win”
    ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Where is North Bay?

    I know there are many naysayers here, but I plan to continue my effort to keep our culture alive in California too. I'd do something along the lines of an educational event when you go. Teach gun safety and gun use techniques. My favorite is a hike to the gun range. If North Bay means northern CA, then maybe we can do something together

    Portantino's 1527 is due for a public hearing on June 26 in the senate public safety committee. Although I told one of the gun lobbyists at the capitol after the last hearing, that I was done with legislation, I've decided that I will go back and see this one through one way or the other. I'll be speaking to the committee this time on behalf of myself and Save Our State. If anyone can't make it, and they have something very important to add that I can relay, feel free to contact me

    By the way; I thought of something in relation to the number of exemptions to this bill, and the handgun OC. Previously I was under the impression that the exemptions were added to appease certain groups so that they would stay out of the fight over it and the bill would pass. I think that's only partially true now. While some of the exemptions are necessary for hollywood film makers and auxillary groups; other exemptions make no sense whatsoever. I now believe they have so many useless exemptions so when it is challenged in court the state will point to all the exemptions and say "see, it's not a total ban." It will amount to a total ban for the majority, because most of us do not fit in one or more of them at the time we want to OC. But a zillion exemptions will either appease or confuse the court when the case arrives there
    Last edited by Save Our State; 06-06-2012 at 01:41 AM.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    It will amount to a total ban for the majority, because most of us do not fit in one or more of them at the time we want to OC.
    So, you have never had a hunting license? (Which reminds me, I will need to get mine come July 1st.)
    Last edited by ConditionThree; 06-06-2012 at 10:29 AM.
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    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    So, you have never had a hunting license? (Which reminds me, I will need to get mine come July 1st.)
    I'd be in the minority, not the majority. There are a few of those exemptions that I could use, although it is presumable the DA might challenge them as not being the intent of the legislature. But those in the majority will struggle or drop out because it is complicated. In any case, I think you might at least have taken my point. The courts may not have to see it as a total ban with all those exemptions. Then, over the following years, the legislature will start picking off exemptions one by one. On a side note; I don't really know how many hunters are also in the OC corner. A lot of hunters I know are just avid sportsmen, but not avid rights activists. Some have told me that they'd be ok with keeping the guns covered up until you're in the field

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjones View Post
    AB1527 isn't law ... yet
    Please don't OC LongGuns in Urban California and essentially guarantee its passage!
    I think the key word in your first sentence is "yet". And with the laws in Kalifornia being what they are, I'm not sure that really matters. While I understand what you are trying to say with your second sentence, I have never understood why, at least on topics like OC, people think that a peaceful demonstration such as organizing a gathering of like minded individuals to OC in an area where it is legal and not break any laws would automatically guarantee a law against it. I'm not saying you are wrong, but perhaps the issue is that the public awareness is not there about this issue. (as unlikely as that actually is, it is still a possibility.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    At the risk of offending a new member to the board, I would say you havent put much thought or 'figuring' into your objective.
    You have to honestly answer the following questions;
    What is it that you are attempting to accomplish? What is the probable outcome of this activity?
    If you are promoting a liberty in an area where it has been rejected- what net positive can you attain? In other words, can participating in this activity expand the exercise or instigate legislative or municipal efforts to restrict it?
    If the law says that one is exempted as a particular class or during designated activity, why would you carry a long gun when a holstered handgun is still an option?
    I am not offended at all. I honestly appreciate the feedback. And yes I am new, both to this forum and to OCing in general. That is part of the reason I asked for feedback and comments on this.
    In response: While I have put some thought into this, I am not sure I meet your requirements. My main purpose was simply to get a group of like minded people together and hang out. If something more came of it, advancing public awareness, educating people, etc. then great. If not, then at the very least we might make some new friends or contacts in the community. As for your comment about using a handgun rather than a long gun, frankly I'm not rich enough to attempt to challenge the loopholes in that law, nor do I think this is the time to do it. When 1527 becomes law, and yes I believe it is a matter of when not if unfortunately, that would be the time to start challenging the loopholes in 144. However I think that at this point it would just make them close those loopholes rather than repeal. As for your question about the net positive, I believe that the activity itself is a net positive. This is one of the few communities in existence within the US that it is difficult to organize a get together around, mostly because of the lack of public awareness about the issue, about safety, etc. Almost everybody that I have met who is an advocate of OC, and almost everybody that I have talked to are down to earth, laid back people who simply want the choice to be their own about whether or not they OC. I agree that there can be a net negative for the community if it is not handled properly, but I don't believe that it is a guarantee that will happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    Where is North Bay?

    I know there are many naysayers here, but I plan to continue my effort to keep our culture alive in California too. I'd do something along the lines of an educational event when you go. Teach gun safety and gun use techniques. My favorite is a hike to the gun range. If North Bay means northern CA, then maybe we can do something together.
    That sounds like a great idea. By North Bay I meant somewhere between San Rafael and Santa Rosa. All along 101 north of San Francisco. Sorry for any confusion.

  10. #10
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alxndrxvier View Post
    My main purpose was simply to get a group of like minded people together and hang out. If something more came of it, advancing public awareness, educating people, etc. then great. If not, then at the very least we might make some new friends or contacts in the community. As for your comment about using a handgun rather than a long gun, frankly I'm not rich enough to attempt to challenge the loopholes in that law, nor do I think this is the time to do it. When 1527 becomes law, and yes I believe it is a matter of when not if unfortunately, that would be the time to start challenging the loopholes in 144. However I think that at this point it would just make them close those loopholes rather than repeal. As for your question about the net positive, I believe that the activity itself is a net positive. This is one of the few communities in existence within the US that it is difficult to organize a get together around, mostly because of the lack of public awareness about the issue, about safety, etc. Almost everybody that I have met who is an advocate of OC, and almost everybody that I have talked to are down to earth, laid back people who simply want the choice to be their own about whether or not they OC. I agree that there can be a net negative for the community if it is not handled properly, but I don't believe that it is a guarantee that will happen.
    There simply must be more considered than to use open carry as an excuse to socialize. Or to educate people, even if it is to show how ridiculously restrictive gun ownership has become.

    Here's how your proposed event plays out: You get 10-30 people together to carry long guns at a venue that won't throw you out when the first customer complains or calls the police. Since you have advertized far and wide on the internet for willing participants in this endeavor, Karen Arntzen from the Brady Campaign has mobilized 3 or 4 of her die hard anti-gun advocates to welcome you to your meeting equipped with signs mocking gunowners making up for 'genital deficiencies'. While 3 or 4 counterprotestors isnt an army of opposition, they want to take the opportunity to use your event as a backstop to bounce their strident 'no-guns-anywhere-at-anytime' message off of... so in advance of this conflict someone will contact bay area media to cover the event and to ensure that their journalistic integrity is maintained, the media will be sure to get reactions from both sides of the story. (This is in spite of the 30 of you outnumbering the 4 of the Brady bunch.) The intent to educate the public would be twisted into something more contraversial and put on the evening news with equal standing with the anti-gunners, who will likely better prepared to interact with media than any of your participants. The appearance of this story is seen by legislative staffers and brought to the attention of area legislators- and they are reminded that pending legislation to prohibit what you are doing is being considered.

    So, instead of advertising your intent to carry long guns at a particular date and time, dont. This way you will not engage the Brady campaign and may remove the media element. Hiding your intentions from the enemy here is essential. You cannot afford to give anti gunners equal footing, particularly when media is involved.

    Instead of inviting 10 or more participants, dont. Keep your numbers between 3 and 5. Your intent shouldnt be to make this into an 'event', but to demonstrate that this is usual, normal, ordinary...something that is as natural to do as to put on a seatbelt or have a fire extinguisher, or have a spare tire.

    Instead of making this a social event that trivializes the activity, dont. Compose and print out information about this activity to distribute to interested observers. This is a first amendment activity that has stronger protections here than in most other states. Add a community service element or contribute in a way that others cannot.

    Instead of using long guns to make your point, dont. Claim ownership of one or more of the exemptions and carry a holstered handgun fully in compliance of the law. Even if the legislature does notice and revisits the law to eliminate exemptions, this forces them to reneg on exemptions that Portantino wrote into the law. Eventually, they will burn the special constituency that they wanted to protect. This would hurt them more than it would hurt us.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Instead of using long guns to make your point, dont. Claim ownership of one or more of the exemptions and carry a holstered handgun fully in compliance of the law. Even if the legislature does notice and revisits the law to eliminate exemptions, this forces them to reneg on exemptions that Portantino wrote into the law. Eventually, they will burn the special constituency that they wanted to protect. This would hurt them more than it would hurt us.
    Or,.......taking a longgun out using one or more of the proposed exemptions to point out the folly of the exemptions before they are cast in the law books. Two things might come out of that. the legislature sees the folly of the authors effort and passes on it, or they reduce the exemptions beforehand, angering some of their special constituency, who apply pressure and cause less votes for the bill.
    This is, of course, as long as you firmly believe the many exemptions are included to appease special constituencies.
    Last edited by Save Our State; 06-07-2012 at 12:28 AM.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    This is, of course, as long as you firmly believe the many exemptions are included to appease special constituencies.
    Take a look at our legislature. Is there anything indicating that they would not have banned all public carry regardless of the kind of firearm unless they had someone tapping on their shoulder telling them, "We really dont want you to do that." I contend that they would have taken it all and if they didnt have to put 116 exemptions in the law, they certainly wouldnt have.

    By being the benefactor of an exemption provided for one of the more monied and sacrosanct constituencies, you force the tyrants to choose. Either accept our claim to the exemption or betray the people they were trying to protect. The possibility that they may change the law in a way that doesnt damage their 'friends' is even running the risk that the law, once rewritten would be so tortured that it would be tossed out - either on the basis that it is too vague or perscribes measures that their 'friends' wont wish to adhere to.
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    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Take a look at our legislature. Is there anything indicating that they would not have banned all public carry regardless of the kind of firearm unless they had someone tapping on their shoulder telling them, "We really dont want you to do that." I contend that they would have taken it all and if they didnt have to put 116 exemptions in the law, they certainly wouldnt have.

    By being the benefactor of an exemption provided for one of the more monied and sacrosanct constituencies, you force the tyrants to choose. Either accept our claim to the exemption or betray the people they were trying to protect. The possibility that they may change the law in a way that doesnt damage their 'friends' is even running the risk that the law, once rewritten would be so tortured that it would be tossed out - either on the basis that it is too vague or perscribes measures that their 'friends' wont wish to adhere to.
    There are some exemptions that are just too obscure and lacking in any considerable monied or politically empowered background to have compelled their inclusion into the code. I still maintain that the legislature is setting the pathway for the supreme or lesser courts to find the law constitutional if anyone brings a "total ban" case.

  14. #14
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    There are some exemptions that are just too obscure and lacking in any considerable monied or politically empowered background to have compelled their inclusion into the code. I still maintain that the legislature is setting the pathway for the supreme or lesser courts to find the law constitutional if anyone brings a "total ban" case.
    I'd be interested in reading what you find to be too obscure.

    So you do see a corner in which they can be painted into here, dont you?

    By being the exempted persons and doing what it is they do not like us to do, they can systematically withdraw the exemptions to stop the activity and open the law up to judicial review or accept that the exemptions are broad enough to apply to anyone willing to fit into them.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    I'd be interested in reading what you find to be too obscure.

    So you do see a corner in which they can be painted into here, dont you?

    By being the exempted persons and doing what it is they do not like us to do, they can systematically withdraw the exemptions to stop the activity and open the law up to judicial review or accept that the exemptions are broad enough to apply to anyone willing to fit into them.
    Obscure; and somewhat ridiculous I might add:
    (i) A person engaged solely in the business of securing
    information about persons or property from public records.


    As far as them painting themselves into a corner, I think it is us they are painting into a corner. They are nailing us down to a knats knee what our necessities are for possessing a gun in plain view. We are the ones that will be fighting our way out of charges, and we are the ones who will bear the costs of that. If it passes, it will be a few years before any changes are made, and several years before any challenges work their way to the supreme court, if they even hear it. It could be 10 years before we see any decisions limiting their legislation, and in the interim, we will be the one's limited. In a perfect world, you'd be right, and the reviews of the law would occur right away. In practice though, these things take time

  16. #16
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    Obscure; and somewhat ridiculous I might add:
    (i) A person engaged solely in the business of securing
    information about persons or property from public records.


    As far as them painting themselves into a corner, I think it is us they are painting into a corner. They are nailing us down to a knats knee what our necessities are for possessing a gun in plain view. We are the ones that will be fighting our way out of charges, and we are the ones who will bear the costs of that. If it passes, it will be a few years before any changes are made, and several years before any challenges work their way to the supreme court, if they even hear it. It could be 10 years before we see any decisions limiting their legislation, and in the interim, we will be the one's limited. In a perfect world, you'd be right, and the reviews of the law would occur right away. In practice though, these things take time
    That exemption is copied from the Business and Professions code, protecting private investigators which are a state licensed occupation. None of the exemptions that protect peace officers, private security, private investigators can be considered 'obscure' because they protect a state interest in law enforcement and civil matters that usually find their way into court.

    Try again.

    And yes, you are correct that they are attempting to paint us into an increasingly smaller corner. As I have been trying to point out, there are limits on what they can do, else they would have made a wholesale ban on weapons anywhere in public. They didn't. And even now as they consider adding long guns to the law that has so many holes in it that it could be used as a pasta drainer, they shrink back from taking it to a total ban.

    So far, the legislature believes it has been sucessful in establishing voluntary compliance to PC26350 and its future additions. If the exemptions are exploited, just how many times will they revisit the law to restore this universal compliance? And are they willing to burn the entertainment industry and other monied interests to do it? I am saying they wont and that this is the weak area where open carry advocates should focus their energies, instead of inviting the passage of AB1527 with a long gun in front of news cameras.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=ConditionThree;1767345]That exemption is copied from the Business and Professions code, protecting private investigators which are a state licensed occupation. None of the exemptions that protect peace officers, private security, private investigators can be considered 'obscure' because they protect a state interest in law enforcement and civil matters that usually find their way into court.
    QUOTE]

    Oh c'mon now Condition3; They could have just put licensed private investigators. A public records researcher only doesn't need to openly carry a gun within their mindset. Public records are derived from public sources, and almost exclusively from public buildings. An openly carried rifle is pretty much banned from a public building unless you're an LEO. These legislators were just dredging up pollution for the courts to rule as sufficient to overcome a total ban

    This isn't worth arguing over though. I have my opinions and you have yours. Short of meeting each other halfway between our respective locations and each of us attempting to pound the other into submission, we're not going to agree.

    June 26th is still the next committee meeting. July is my next planned hike to the range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    There simply must be more considered than to use open carry as an excuse to socialize. Or to educate people, even if it is to show how ridiculously restrictive gun ownership has become.
    .....(material removed to save space).....
    This would hurt them more than it would hurt us.
    Some very excellent points, especially about the whens and why to do this. You have definitely given me much to think about. I agree that OC should be as natural and as obvious as having a spare tire in your car. I also believe that this issue is one that affects all Americans, whether they are pro or anti gun.

    I will say that I do disagree slightly with your prediction of how the gathering would go, though sadly I can see it going that way quite easily. Once again, thank you for your well thought out response and insightful comments.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by alxndrxvier View Post
    Some very excellent points, especially about the whens and why to do this. You have definitely given me much to think about. I agree that OC should be as natural and as obvious as having a spare tire in your car. I also believe that this issue is one that affects all Americans, whether they are pro or anti gun.

    I will say that I do disagree slightly with your prediction of how the gathering would go, though sadly I can see it going that way quite easily. Once again, thank you for your well thought out response and insightful comments.
    There is a marked difference between having a spare tire in your hand, and having a rifle in yout hand when the police pass you, or are dispatched to the scene by a report. The first dispatch report is of a motorist in distress; the latter is a report of an angry looking man with a gun. A man alone is a bit more at risk than a group of them practicing the latter. It's not as natural as it used to be. We need to revive it with some restraint during the process, but misery loves company. In this case, misery deserves it.

    My last hike to the range was uneventful because I notified the locals in advance. The first was not because I didn't notify them. I lobby for prior notification as a way to ward off the evil spirits of unkind responses from LEO, and preying propagandists from local media.

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