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Thread: First time involved in confrontation while OC'ing... horn blowing at intersection

  1. #1
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    Smile First time involved in confrontation while OC'ing... horn blowing at intersection

    The wife and I decided to take our cars to get washed the other day and so I'm following her as we approach the turn into the car wash. There is a median where you have to cross 2 lanes of traffic and my wife had a car in front of her who sat for over 30 seconds with nobody coming in the opposite lanes. My wife honked her horn so the person would hurry up. The vehicle in front of her was occupied by a single white female (approx. 20 years old) who made a u-turn and proceded to flip my wife off in the process. My wife returned the one finger salute and we proceeded to make the left turn into the car wash. That was the end of it for us, until...we're the only ones waiting to enter the car wash as someone was already in it. While we're waiting, I noticed the same vehicle that engaged in the finger flipping had since circled back around behind our vehicles and parked off to the right of my wife's car out of her sight line, approximately 30 yards away. As I'm watching the vehicle behind my wife, I see the door open, the young woman exit the vehicle and begin to walk quickly towards my wife's car while trying to stay in her blind spot. The woman was obviously unaware that I was with her as she paid no attention to me. At this point, I'm fully aware of what's occuring and so I open my door and step out and around the back of my vehicle, in between her and my wife. At this point, my wife see's what's about to happen and also exits her vehicle. As the young woman begins to scream at my wife, I interupt her her loudly and with a lot of force in my voice (My Marine voice ) that she needs to return to her vehicle immediately. She proceeds to attempt to explain why she was sitting at the intersection (she claims she is learning to drive a stick) to which I reply I don't care what she has to say and re-emphasize her need to return to her car. She then notices my Glock 27 attached to my hip and says, "Or what, you're going to shoot me?" I inform her that I don't know her and that the way she deliberately back tracked on my wife and attempted to approach her blind spot, she's lucky I hadn't already drawn on her and if she continued to act in a threatening manner, I was going to call the police. At this point, I believe she realized she had made a regretable mistake and returned to her car without saying another word.

    A few points of interest...the young woman was approximately 5'5" 105 lbs and I'm 6'2" 205 lbs so I wasn't exactly threatend by her. However, not knowing her intentions, I was happy that I was armed. Also of note, I probably saved her an ass kicking she couldn't have imagined, as my wife is an active duty Marine who likely would have stopped beating her once she was unconcious or someone pulled my wife off of her...lol

    Anyways, just thought I'd share my first experience where tempers flaired and my OC'ing came into play. Thoughts or comments are appreciated!

  2. #2
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Before everyone else jumps on the bandwagon... yeah probably never a good idea to return the one-fingered salute. That aside...


    Did this happen in Fredericksburg? Just curious, considering your profile entry. There was a shooting just last week of a knife-wielding assailant who sneaked up on a man in a car by approaching through the blind spot. The assailant was shot to death by the man in the car, and as yet, I don't believe there are any plans to file charges. (Brings me back to the first point above... always something to keep in mind.)

    TFred

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    Regular Member AtackDuck's Avatar
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    Nice constraint

    It sounds like you maintained control of the situation as well as yourself and used minimum force to defuse the confrontation.

    Well done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Before everyone else jumps on the bandwagon... yeah probably never a good idea to return the one-fingered salute. That aside...


    Did this happen in Fredericksburg? Just curious, considering your profile entry. There was a shooting just last week of a knife-wielding assailant who sneaked up on a man in a car by approaching through the blind spot. The assailant was shot to death by the man in the car, and as yet, I don't believe there are any plans to file charges. (Brings me back to the first point above... always something to keep in mind.)

    TFred
    Yes, this was in Fredericksburg over at Central Park. The car wash next to McDonalds.

    I read the story you're refering to as well. The sad story but I'm glad it worked out the way it did.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I have to disagree with TFred. Returning he salute is obligatory....but, saying you should have already drawn or any mention of your gun even though she did, is bad.

    Other than that...well done and give the wife a hug for me!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I have to disagree with TFred. Returning he salute is obligatory....but, saying you should have already drawn or any mention of your gun even though she did, is bad.

    Other than that...well done and give the wife a hug for me!
    Just thinking of being able to maintain a claim of innocence in the entire situation, that's all.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just thinking of being able to maintain a claim of innocence in the entire situation, that's all.

    TFred
    I know and it's the voice of reason. Ignoring it would eat away at me for months though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I have to disagree with TFred. Returning he salute is obligatory....but, saying you should have already drawn or any mention of your gun even though she did, is bad.

    Other than that...well done and give the wife a hug for me!
    I can't claim innocence with regards to the finger...I'm always quick to return it if given...lol

    In retrospect, I agree with the mentioning of drawing. Something to keep in mind for the future...thanks for pointing that out.

    And I'll pass it along to the wife...she'll appreciate it

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    I agree with the obligitory return of the bird I as a general rule don't referrence my glock 23 unless the conversation is civil. I say ", Let the gun do the talking!" (only if necessary of course) But good on yah mate. I'd say all the little things only become wrong in the eyes of the law should the situation escalate and the weapon be fired. All those small points could point toward a conviction if you're unlucky enough. But if it comes down to it, I choose my life over theirs.
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

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    So the entire incident was precipitated by a horn blowing at a vehicle which conceivably could have been stalled even though it had no flashers on? If it sat there for "30 seconds" with no oncoming traffic, I'd have made the assumption there was a problem with the vehicle. In which case, a horn blowing wouldn't have been warranted and the entire situation wouldn't have taken place to start with.

    Horn blowing is a pet peeve of mine anyway, especially someone who does it within a second or two of a light change. We're a bit more laid back in my area of SW VA and more likely to give a driver the benefit of doubt.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Needless escalation of a situation. It rapidly devolved into a potentially bad scene and for what? Nothing. Glad everyone went home OK.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911 Enthusiast View Post
    So the entire incident was precipitated by a horn blowing at a vehicle which conceivably could have been stalled even though it had no flashers on? If it sat there for "30 seconds" with no oncoming traffic, I'd have made the assumption there was a problem with the vehicle. In which case, a horn blowing wouldn't have been warranted and the entire situation wouldn't have taken place to start with.

    Horn blowing is a pet peeve of mine anyway, especially someone who does it within a second or two of a light change. We're a bit more laid back in my area of SW VA and more likely to give a driver the benefit of doubt.
    For the most part, I agree.... but... knowing the area this happened.... its not uncommon for people to get distracted at an intersection, talking on the phone, reading emails, texting, talking to a passenger, etc... so they don't notice that they had plenty of opportunity to go through the intersection. Usually a little 'tap' on the horn takes care of it in a somewhat civil manner and a full on, long duration 'get the hell out of my way' type horn blowing isn't necesary.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Blowing the horn may or may not indicate a lack of manners or impatience. Pulling a U-turn to flip off the horn blower may or may not indicate a lack of manners. Returning the sentiment may or may not indicate a lack of manners.

    Pulling into the car wash after the OP and his wife may or may not indicate nefarious intent. Getting out of the car and approaching the OP's wife from an angle likely to be a blind spot may or may not indicate nefarious intent.

    Confronting the female and warning her to stop/retreat is good tactics. Responding to her questioning of who the OP thought he was to tell her what to do ("I inform her that I don't know her and that the way she deliberately back tracked on my wife and attempted to approach her blind spot....") was good tactics.

    Telling her "She's lucky I hadn't already drawn on her...." is, if I may be permitted to temper my comment, sheer stupidity.

    Telling her that "if she continued to act in a threatening manner, I was going to call the police" was good tactics.

    Protecting the wife/husband/kids/pet tarantula is a wonderful thing. But to make a threat - even veiled - of using a firearm? Not so much.

    If there was a need to draw and shoot, you should have drawn and shot. If there was no need to draw and shoot, any reference to the firearm on your part is just not good tactics. She asked if you were going to shoot her if she did not back away? Respond that doing so was the last thing you wanterd to be forced by her actions to do. (Or words to that effect.) Put the responsibility back on her to decide how the exchange will end.

    And for goodness sake, please tell us you had an audio recorder running through all of this!

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    I'm sure skidmark, that you have a very upclose look as to how an audio recording would have helped. If you have any type of smart phone, there are pretty good apps out to record when you carry. They don't draw much power and don't always have to be on IMO. Im able to record with 3 quick taps of buttons. It is definitely something I see being helpful.
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

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    Don't return the salute

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I have to disagree with TFred. Returning he salute is obligatory....but, saying you should have already drawn or any mention of your gun even though she did, is bad.

    Other than that...well done and give the wife a hug for me!
    I will disagree with Peter. As much as you want to, returning the gesture is a bad idea. If the confrontation escalates to gun fire, the finger will be considered as an escalating factor, police, prosecutors and jurors will consider. You want to maintain the mantle of innocence that you did everything you could to avoid using the gun. That means walking away from a confrontation, if at all possible.

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    +1

    Actually except for that one comment, he did pretty well. It was a refreshing post especially in light of the extremes I've been seeing lately. Some would have shot her and some would have dialed 911. He just handled it and went on about his business.

    I have trouble understanding why that's so complicated for some people.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan7068 View Post
    I'm sure skidmark, that you have a very upclose look as to how an audio recording would have helped. If you have any type of smart phone, there are pretty good apps out to record when you carry. They don't draw much power and don't always have to be on IMO. Im able to record with 3 quick taps of buttons. It is definitely something I see being helpful.
    IME, if you are not already running the recorder, it's easy to forget to stop what you're doing, find the thing and turn it on. So, really, it's not 3 quick taps, it's find the phone, orient the device, find the buttons, tap them and, oh, remember under high stress to do so. I suggest running a stand-alone long playing audio recorder any time you're out and armed (or not armed).
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Congratulations marine ... you scared a little girl...KUDOS.....

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    I may be wrong........but wasn't it in skidmarks case that the judge said something along the lines of people that carry guns are allowed to have arguments too?

    While some may call me stupid over it.....and this may not have happened this way in this case. If someone mis-interperets my actions as rudeness and then proceeds to be an a-hole, I will be one right back. (carrying or not)

    I have restraint from escalating to violence. It really isn't my fault that someone else can't keep their hands to themeself. If they are moronic enough to attack me I would retreat or defend at much as possible without a firearm.
    Last edited by ryan7068; 06-06-2012 at 09:39 AM.
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianto94 View Post
    I will disagree with Peter. As much as you want to, returning the gesture is a bad idea. If the confrontation escalates to gun fire, the finger will be considered as an escalating factor, police, prosecutors and jurors will consider. You want to maintain the mantle of innocence that you did everything you could to avoid using the gun. That means walking away from a confrontation, if at all possible.
    It wasn't even close to involving gunfire, he just had it on and didn't leave it in the car when he got out.

    In this case it was a woman so the wife could handle the physical end but in most cases it's a man and a Azz whuppin would be in order. There's a lot of territory to be explored between Calling the cops and shooting someone.

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    Regular Member Lincoln7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Congratulations marine ... you scared a little girl...KUDOS.....
    Without them knowing the outcome of the situation I'm guessing the marine and his wife were both scared at some point, too, by the 'little girl's' actions.

  22. #22
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    We got the finger salute once, horn got stuck on the car, we couldn't stop laughing, the guy held it for 30+ seconeds or so. Had to get the horn fixed later.

    I think your handled it well, also wasn't there another road rage just the other day from another OCDO member?
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 06-06-2012 at 10:38 AM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    IME, if you are not already running the recorder, it's easy to forget to stop what you're doing, find the thing and turn it on. So, really, it's not 3 quick taps, it's find the phone, orient the device, find the buttons, tap them and, oh, remember under high stress to do so. I suggest running a stand-alone long playing audio recorder any time you're out and armed (or not armed).
    +1 I heard of some crazy stories and if they didn't have the recorder they might be in jail for nothing.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Congratulations marine ... you scared a little girl...KUDOS.....
    Really???

    The "little girl" seems, from the OP's description, to be ready to do some "big girl" actions. How exactly would you have handled an aggressive woman that is approaching your wife or gf to start a confrontation??

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
    Without them knowing the outcome of the situation I'm guessing the marine and his wife were both scared at some point, too, by the 'little girl's' actions.
    I agree except I'm not sure anyone was scared. Concerned would be a better word.

    The little girl certainly wanted to continue what was a normal daily traffic incident.
    She followed the wife, got out and approached the car.
    The Marine was concerned and got out, diffused the situation and everyone went home.

    Pretty calm if you ask me.

    I know someone...can't remember who, who was on his motorcycle waiting to make a left turn and an impatient driver started honking his horn. The Bike rider parked the bike and calmly walked to the car while the driver rolled the window up almost all the way.

    He said "If you honk that GD horn one more time I'm going to pull you through that crack". The driver pulled across three lanes of traffic and sped away.

    Now that's an example of scaring people.

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