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Thread: Seattle councilwoman's attack on open carry

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    Seattle councilwoman's attack on open carry

    Bagshaw’s 16 public safety ideas push anti-gun agenda

    …Washington has a concealed pistol license, but there is no permit or license required to carry openly; the license enables the legal concealment of the gun, not the carrying of it.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/bags...id=db_articles



    Sally has a problem. Perhaps someone here has a solution, eh?

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    Regular Member Gilead_Gunslinger's Avatar
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    retirement????
    I aim with my eye... I shoot with my mind... I kill with my heart....
    - The Gunslinger's Litany (paraphrased)

    It has been brought to my attention that the stick figure decals on
    the back windows of vehicles are NOT pedestrian 'kill' scores, but are
    actually meant to represent family members. I'll be removing mine
    ASAP to avoid any further confusion.........

    First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.

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    reading the constitution of the state would be a good start for her.

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Sally has a problem. Perhaps someone here has a solution, eh?
    I sure do! I have four cheap and very effective ideas that no one has tried in recent memory.

    Check the ol' Blogzilla... --> Freedom First 1775
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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    Regular Member jsanchez's Avatar
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    Bagshaw was at the fundraiser for Ceasefire a couple of weeks ago. I first met Bagshaw at a community center on Capitol Hill, Miller community center, they had a sign out front no guns, that hadn't been taken down yet. I strolled on in with my 45 in my thigh holster and sat down at the table she was hosting. It was on the future of the parks. She didn't seem upset about my gun then. I've spoken at city hall to commitee's she is on, nothing said then. Maybe she needs votes, or maybe she was a friend of Tom Wales, most people in Ceasefire are.

    I think First Freedom makes some great points.
    Last edited by jsanchez; 06-07-2012 at 09:12 PM.

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanchez View Post
    Bagshaw was at the fundraiser for Ceasefire a couple of weeks ago. I first met Bagshaw at a community center on Capitol Hill, Miller community center, they had a sign out front no guns, that hadn't been taken down yet. I strolled on in with my 45 in my thigh holster and sat down at the table she was hosting. It was on the future of the parks. She didn't seem upset about my gun then. I've spoken at city hall to commitee's she is on, nothing said then. Maybe she needs votes, or maybe she was a friend of Tom Wales, most people in Ceasefire are.

    I think First Freedom makes some great points.
    Most of these folks are sincere and decent, just ignorant of reality. And also ignorant of the effects of their choices and actions in the long run. That annoying "Law of Unintended Consequences..."
    Last edited by Freedom First; 06-07-2012 at 09:20 PM.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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    she can move her butt back to CA. I'll bet that's where she's from.

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    When my daughter was born, I wanted to do everything I could to keep her safe.

    A lot of parent get these child safety devices to put on everything. Most of you can think of several examples, the rest can visit the baby department at your favorite department store. By the age of four, I had defeated every one of the devices my parents wasted money on.

    I took a different tack. Starting at the age of one, I would show her something I thought would hurt her and explain what it was, why we had it, and that it could hurt her. My wife thought I was nuts. Everyone thought I was nuts doing that.

    At the age of three, I started teaching her how to use some of the dangerous things around the house. I would show her something like a kitchen knife and how to use it safely, let her use it with me there, and tell her I wanted her to ask permission when she wanted to use it so that an adult could be there with her. This kind of thing freaked my wife out. I am glad that she had enough trust in me to let me do this with our kid.

    To be clear, I don't let my daughter do certain things or leave dangerous items just laying around. She takes an active role in her own safety though. She lets me know when something isn't right. When I have something new I bring into the house, she'll ask safety questions about it. She's not afraid, she just knows that there are some things that can hurt you. My daughter is five now and so far we've never had a major safety scare with her.

    If this works with a five year old, why can't we get adults to take a personal active role in taking care of themselves? The entire adult population should be ready to handle first responder duties in an emergency. Not just in the sense of security, though that is a large part of it, but medical and fires too.

    Every time we take things away from people and tell them that they are not mature enough to handle them, we decrease the ability of our society to be self supporting. We cannot bubble wrap the world. We all need everyone to take an active role in the safety and security of themselves and their surroundings. After all, my 5yo does, why can't Seattle residents?
    What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.

    I believe in freedom, Mr. Lipwig. Not many people do, although they will, of course, protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.

    The freedom to succeed goes hand in hand with the freedom to fail. - Going Postal, Terry Pratchett

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi View Post
    When my daughter was born, I wanted to do everything I could to keep her safe.

    A lot of parent get these child safety devices to put on everything. Most of you can think of several examples, the rest can visit the baby department at your favorite department store. By the age of four, I had defeated every one of the devices my parents wasted money on.

    I took a different tack. Starting at the age of one, I would show her something I thought would hurt her and explain what it was, why we had it, and that it could hurt her. My wife thought I was nuts. Everyone thought I was nuts doing that.

    At the age of three, I started teaching her how to use some of the dangerous things around the house. I would show her something like a kitchen knife and how to use it safely, let her use it with me there, and tell her I wanted her to ask permission when she wanted to use it so that an adult could be there with her. This kind of thing freaked my wife out. I am glad that she had enough trust in me to let me do this with our kid.

    To be clear, I don't let my daughter do certain things or leave dangerous items just laying around. She takes an active role in her own safety though. She lets me know when something isn't right. When I have something new I bring into the house, she'll ask safety questions about it. She's not afraid, she just knows that there are some things that can hurt you. My daughter is five now and so far we've never had a major safety scare with her.

    If this works with a five year old, why can't we get adults to take a personal active role in taking care of themselves? The entire adult population should be ready to handle first responder duties in an emergency. Not just in the sense of security, though that is a large part of it, but medical and fires too.

    Every time we take things away from people and tell them that they are not mature enough to handle them, we decrease the ability of our society to be self supporting. We cannot bubble wrap the world. We all need everyone to take an active role in the safety and security of themselves and their surroundings. After all, my 5yo does, why can't Seattle residents?
    No. Not that... Are you crazy man? Anything but that... Not the LOGIC!
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

    Freedom First 1775

    "I aim to misbehave..." Malcolm Reynolds

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi View Post
    When my daughter was born, I wanted to do everything I could to keep her safe.


    At the age of three, I started teaching her how to use some of the dangerous things around the house. I would show her something like a kitchen knife and how to use it safely, let her use it with me there, and tell her I wanted her to ask permission when she wanted to use it so that an adult could be there with her. This kind of thing freaked my wife out. I am glad that she had enough trust in me to let me do this with our kid.
    ...

    If this works with a five year old, why can't we get adults to take a personal active role in taking care of themselves? The entire adult population should be ready to handle first responder duties in an emergency. Not just in the sense of security, though that is a large part of it, but medical and fires too.

    Every time we take things away from people and tell them that they are not mature enough to handle them, we decrease the ability of our society to be self supporting. We cannot bubble wrap the world. We all need everyone to take an active role in the safety and security of themselves and their surroundings. After all, my 5yo does, why can't Seattle residents?

    I like your approach and if it's alright with you I would like to share it with other people (cut and paste you get credit of course).

    Maybe you could share this with the letters to the editor of your local paper?

    And you're dead on about the idea that people should know "the basics" of FMOS (first man on scene).
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi View Post
    When my daughter was born, I wanted to do everything I could to keep her safe.

    A lot of parent get these child safety devices to put on everything. Most of you can think of several examples, the rest can visit the baby department at your favorite department store. By the age of four, I had defeated every one of the devices my parents wasted money on.

    I took a different tack. Starting at the age of one, I would show her something I thought would hurt her and explain what it was, why we had it, and that it could hurt her. My wife thought I was nuts. Everyone thought I was nuts doing that.

    At the age of three, I started teaching her how to use some of the dangerous things around the house. I would show her something like a kitchen knife and how to use it safely, let her use it with me there, and tell her I wanted her to ask permission when she wanted to use it so that an adult could be there with her. This kind of thing freaked my wife out. I am glad that she had enough trust in me to let me do this with our kid.

    To be clear, I don't let my daughter do certain things or leave dangerous items just laying around. She takes an active role in her own safety though. She lets me know when something isn't right. When I have something new I bring into the house, she'll ask safety questions about it. She's not afraid, she just knows that there are some things that can hurt you. My daughter is five now and so far we've never had a major safety scare with her.

    If this works with a five year old, why can't we get adults to take a personal active role in taking care of themselves? The entire adult population should be ready to handle first responder duties in an emergency. Not just in the sense of security, though that is a large part of it, but medical and fires too.

    Every time we take things away from people and tell them that they are not mature enough to handle them, we decrease the ability of our society to be self supporting. We cannot bubble wrap the world. We all need everyone to take an active role in the safety and security of themselves and their surroundings. After all, my 5yo does, why can't Seattle residents?

    Do the world a favor. When you start teaching her about boys...write a book. You will save millions of other parents from depression, fear, paranoia, insanity...

    I tried to teach my sons about girls, but gave up. There are some things that simply cannot be explained.... (I offer Bagshaw as proof)


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    Regular Member jsanchez's Avatar
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    This is what I would tell that old Bag lady.

    Hey Bag lady,

    I come from California. We don't have concealed carry permits, open carry, assault weapons, high capacity magazines, or gun show loop holes. But we did have the Stockton school yard shooting, 101 California, and just the other month the Oakland University massacre, http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/us...and-calif.html . So your so wrong.

    Let me just point out one thing. This didn't happen at STARBUCKS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Do the world a favor. When you start teaching her about boys...write a book. You will save millions of other parents from depression, fear, paranoia, insanity...

    I tried to teach my sons about girls, but gave up. There are some things that simply cannot be explained.... (I offer Bagshaw as proof)

    The one thing I'd say about my approach to raising my daughter is that it's a lot of work. I spend a lot more time interacting with my daughter than I see other fathers do.

    The other thing is getting and keeping her trust. This means spending a lot more time checking my facts rather than coming up with a quick answer to shut her up. It's amazing to me how not treating her like she's stupid boosts her ability to think for herself and garners trust. Sometimes I have to say I don't know, sometimes I tell her that it's something I'll explain when she's older, and sometimes I tell her that it's not something that's her business but I never lie to her.

    I'm also very careful about discipline. I make sure that the rules she is to follow are clear and firm. She knows what behavior is expected and she always get the same responses from me for good and bad behavior. There is a clear delineation between what she did that is wrong and what has upset me. If she broke a rule, I calmly tell what she did and immediately pass sentence. If she has upset me, I don't come in physical contact with her at all. I get in a place where I can see level into her eyes and tell her I'm upset and why. Almost always, she apologizes on the spot and gives me a hug on her own motivation.

    For me, it's not a big deal. My daughter is my friend and a person who's company I enjoy. She's immature and childish (hey, she's 5) but intelligent and socially well adjusted. The hardest part is determining where I need to be protective and assertive and where I need to just let her have her freedom.

    In the end, my daughter often comes to me when she wants to try something new so that I can help her. This allows me to teach her how to be safe and builds trust between us. She often surprises me on how well she makes good choices, both morally and practically.
    What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.

    I believe in freedom, Mr. Lipwig. Not many people do, although they will, of course, protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.

    The freedom to succeed goes hand in hand with the freedom to fail. - Going Postal, Terry Pratchett

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom First View Post
    Most of these folks are sincere and decent, just ignorant of reality. And also ignorant of the effects of their choices and actions in the long run. That annoying "Law of Unintended Consequences..."
    I liken them to a dog that see's a bowl of food across a room with a freshly waxed floor. They haul @$$ toward their objective but don't realize that they are on a slippery floor. Either they wipe out the dish of food, spreading it everywhere, or they slide full speed into a wall and bash their nose.

    Yes, they do need a good dose of "Wake UP" and realize that all their efforts to take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens won't do a frickin thing about those in the hands of the criminal element. But WE all know that, how do we get the message across to THEM?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  15. #15
    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi View Post
    ...She often surprises me on how well she makes good choices, both morally and practically.
    That's what happens when we raise adults, not children... Good job!
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

    Freedom First 1775

    "I aim to misbehave..." Malcolm Reynolds

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I liken them to a dog that see's a bowl of food across a room with a freshly waxed floor. They haul @$$ toward their objective but don't realize that they are on a slippery floor. Either they wipe out the dish of food, spreading it everywhere, or they slide full speed into a wall and bash their nose.

    Yes, they do need a good dose of "Wake UP" and realize that all their efforts to take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens won't do a frickin thing about those in the hands of the criminal element. But WE all know that, how do we get the message across to THEM?
    I have no intention of surrendering my God-given Right to defend myself and my family to some lame-brain who got elected in Seattle.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

    Freedom First 1775

    "I aim to misbehave..." Malcolm Reynolds

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    Regular Member 07Altima's Avatar
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    I have to admit

    I take an active role in my two kids, and if I only had the one I do not believe corporal punishment would ever be needed, however in cases where they have caused injury to the other out of direct knowledge it was cause pain, I have from time to time used a swat, this is not the first step however, because before I swat my child for the direct action to hurt another I sit down with them calmly explain what they did, explain how it hurt the other, I have connected that hurting others will cause them some pain. This has worked every time I have ever had to use it. My children typically listen, they follow the rules in almost every place we go. I do let them run amok on occasion at home, and demonstrate that its okay here to be a little wild because, home should be a place to let down ones hair so to speak.

    Most of the time talking to them for any other offense has worked very well, and apologies tend to follow any talk I have with them, when they do not apologize I place them alone in time out, am firm about them staying there to think about what they did wrong after explaining what they did wrong. I wait about 5 min or so, and then ask if they know what they did wrong, I almost always get an intelligent response from them, and then a genuine attempt to make amends, with the offended individual. I do have to say that one must be active with ones own kids to ensure that they are not zombies, and how many kids will look at their fathers as the reason to blame for where they are in life.

    I honestly can not say that it is wrong to blame your trainers for your mistakes when your trainer just ignored you, or your actions. If I was a boxer for instance, and my trainer just decided to let me figure it out on my own, I am more likely to kill some one in the ring, use illegal moves, and cause serious harm or damage! Is it my fault for not know these rules, well to some degree certainly, however I would blame the trainer who never said hey that is an illegal move, dont do that because it could kill some one, dont do that because you will get kicked out of the sport forever. These are things that a Parent should be telling their kids.

    If you leave your kid to his own, he will figure out how to play the game of life, but he is far more likely to not respect the world around him, and far more likely to fail. He will fail to follow the rules, fail to abide by the laws, fail to tell his friends no. these are things that will come up, and he will be far more likely to play along. I dont blame the kids at columbine I blame the parents for not having an active role in their kids lives, one father said he didnt know what to do so he just ignored his son, the other was said to be abusive. You tell me where these kids had good guidance!!!!

    The only guidance was from video games, and screamo music! it was not to blame for their actions, however when there are no good role models, no one to teach kids this becomes what they look for, they need that trainer, and they try to find one in anything they feel relates to them.

    IE the Music, and Games were not the real issue as they would have been a non issue if the parents had raised their kids. I believe in full heart that the parents of those kids should be held accountable in part for those kids actions, they did not hold the guns, but they did bring about the actions because they chose not to take an active role in their kids lives!!!

    Responsibility falls first to the individual, and then to their trainers, there are cases where good training still released a bad seed, but this is not the norm. I feel if we were more active, and we had less fatherless homes we would have less crime, less failure, less screw ups, we would have more success, more stability, more responsibility. America is failing because the family dynamic is failing.

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    I basically did the same thing with my wife's boys, though they were 4 and 5 when I got started. Right after I moved in I showed them my .357, told them what it was and that if they wanted to look at it they needed to ask me first. I completely took the mystery out of it. As soon as I could I took them out shooting and made sure to take a watermelon with me. First thing I did was give them the safety instructions. Then I blew the watermelon to pieces and told them if they played with it, that would be their head. It sank in real quick. The younger one is now 14 and has his own .22 rifle in a rack in his room. He knows the 4 cardinal rules of gun safety by heart. Sadly the older boy ended up living with his dad most of the time and I wouldn't trust him with a BB gun. Teaching them early, eliminating the mystery and fear is the best way to keep your kids accident free.

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