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Thread: Road Rage and Guns

  1. #1
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Road Rage and Guns

    So, it's been an exciting week!

    Today, some jack@$$ in an Audi cut me off out of nowhere and almost hit me. When I laid on the horn and switched to the furthest lane, he cut me off again and slammed on his brakes. I'm very fortunate to have just gotten my brakes re-done, or I would have hit this guy, as I'm sure he intended for me to do. This nut job exits the vehicle and starts towards my car, yelling at me. I get out of mine, as well as my brother, and exchange a few choice words with yet another deranged driver here in Portland. Meanwhile, this guys poor wife gets out as well and looks completely embarrassed. I asked why he felt the need to cut me off, and then get mad at me for using my horn, and then continue to endanger not just my life, but my brothers by slamming on his brakes in the middle of traffic. I get a nice "Who the F do you think you are?" and he starts walking towards me. My brother, who had literally just graduated high school an hour prior to this, tells him to stop being an @sshole and leave. He starts towards him, and I reach for my Glock. While keeping it holstered underneath my suit jacket(with my hand around it), I informed him that I was armed and that if he kept physically and verbally threatening us that I would have no choice to draw on him. Luckily, he left after that, but followed me for a good 20 more minutes right on my @ss.

    Looking back, I don't think I needed to mention having a gun to him. I definitely could have handled it a little better, and been a little calmer, but putting a family members life in immediate danger is a no-no for me.

    So, looking for feedback on how I could have handled the situation better, if there was anything else I should have done, etc. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get a full plate number, but I've got a decent description of the man and his car as well as the first four digits.
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    When the actor calls in a rhoid-rager with a gun, and a legally armed citizen is found to indeed have a gun, who do you imagine will be believed? If you are in an altercation and let your opponent know that you have a gun then your next action must be notification of the cops of the incident and that you displayed your gun.

    Your gun is like your other 'gun', keep it in your trousers 'til there is 'fighting' to be done.

  3. #3
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    When the actor calls in a rhoid-rager with a gun, and a legally armed citizen is found to indeed have a gun, who do you imagine will be believed? If you are in an altercation and let your opponent know that you have a gun then your next action must be notification of the cops of the incident and that you displayed your gun.

    Your gun is like your other 'gun', keep it in your trousers 'til there is 'fighting' to be done.
    Thank you. I was going to put off the PD report until tomorrow, but after that I think I'll go in and do it tonight.
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

  4. #4
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Should anything like this ever happen again, you should try and remember to call the police the moment they force you off the road. You have no idea what their intentions are. But considering their negligent behavior with regards to your safety and their own, it would be safe to assume they aren't selling Girl Scout cookies.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Getting involved in the discussion was your second mistake.

    Saying you were armed and ready to draw down on him was another, and I'd have to check WA law to see if it was also illegal. But it is definately not good tactics to force the other side to have to decide to macho-up or crawfish. Based on your comment about his wife's response I'd be willing to guess that was not the first time he thumped his chest at someone.

    Question: When "I get a nice "Who the F do you think you are?" and he starts walking towards me" happened - why did you not drive off? The other guy is a jerk. He's a dangerous idiot, too. But I can see no reason for you to remain there and exchange comments on parentage and educational accomplishments. (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by believing you were not already out of your car, willing and ready to become a grease-stain on the side of the road in front of your brother who would forever remember the day he got his diploma as the day his brother got killed because of some stupid road rage incident.)

    So if you were looking for sympathy it looks like you came to the wrong place. Guns are for when all other options have been exhausted. Evade/disengage is often the first option - choose it and all the others become unnecessary.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  6. #6
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Back in the day, I had a similar situation. I was cut off by some ******, hit my horn and he decides to stop in front of me and get out of his car "ready to rumble". I get out of my car and he decided quickly it was a mistake. I am not exactly a small stature person. He decided it was best to apologize and get back into his car and took off like a bat out of heck. Now a day you have to be more careful because there are ganger's, and other such mental deviants that may not think twice about doing harm.

    I do have to add that unless you felt your life was in danger, the gun reference and pull stature was unwarranted.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 06-08-2012 at 09:06 AM.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  7. #7
    McX
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    this is a planet where danger abounds. how one reacts to it may determine the outcome. i see nothing wrong with a firm grip on a firearm if you are being assailed. depending upon your state's laws ofcourse. i wouldnt have told the assailant, i would have just let him figure it out. you just never know these days, prime example;

    coming out of my building one day, nearing my vehicle at the edge of my parkinglot. out from behind my building, coming from a place they should have not been comes a local walking across the parkinglot straight toward me. i veered off at a right angle to him, and went to the 'ready' position; safety snap on holster released, hand on gun ready to draw, not visible to the walker. nothing happend thankfully, but like The BoyScouts say; be prepared! Every day is a surprise of some kind.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I must have missed something. Why did you get out of your car?

    I, too, would have laid on the horn and changed lanes if possible. Though strictly, in Virginia, that would be "aggressive driving" - pttthh.

    After that, the safe thing would have been to put as much room between him and you as possible. Putting room between him and you DOES NOT involve stopping near him or exiting your vehicle.

    Should he choose to follow, harass, or otherwise endanger you after that, a cell phone is your friend. Call 911, and be prepared to defend yourself IF an immediate threat presents itself.

    That's my $0.03.

  9. #9
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    @skidmark: Definitely not looking for sympathy. Like I posted, I'm trying to get input on how I could have handled it better, stuff like that. You are right; I really shouldn't have even given him the satisfaction of an argument. I was just so enraged that he just blatantly disregarded our safety, as well as his wife's, and got mad at me for something he did.

    I initially got out of the car because he started towards my brother after he said something to him. I was seated when he was walking towards me, but I moved in case he tried to become violent. Although he's 18, my brother is only about 5'8'', and this guy was easily my size (6'1''/200LBs.)

    That's what I was thinking, also, that the reference to my gun was kind of unnecessary. Although I did not find his person to be "life threatening" (I can handle my own fairly well), his actions were and I was really not looking to get into a physical altercation and spend the day in jail and writing statements. With my brother. I consider a 2,000+ pound car a deadly weapon, but I'm not sure if the state of ME does.

    Was it wrong to discreetly threaten my harasser with my gun and use it to diffuse the situation?
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

  10. #10
    Regular Member O2HeN2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    Was it wrong to discreetly threaten my harasser with my gun and use it to diffuse the situation?
    The mistakes were made long before it got to this point -- that's why it got to this point.

    1) Never stop, call 911 if necessary. If they continue to harass you with their vehicle, give 911 a blow-by-blow account.
    2) If you're forced to stop by the other vehicle, roll up the windows and don't get out. You should already have 911 on the phone at this point, continue to describe the situation. If you have a camera, start taking pictures.
    3) If they start damaging your car, keep talking to 911, keep taking pictures.
    4) If they try and break the window, NOW is the time to step up your game. Broken glass on the inside of the car at a shooting incident is going to look good for your defense along with a long 911 recording about how you tried to avoid a confrontation.

    O2

    The goal always is to not to get in the situation where you might have to shoot someone in the first place! This means backing down from fights, no matter how much you're called a chicken.
    Last edited by O2HeN2; 06-08-2012 at 01:57 PM.
    When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
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  11. #11
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by O2HeN2 View Post
    The goal always is to not to get in the situation where you might have to shoot someone in the first place! This means backing down from fights, no matter how much you're called a chicken.
    Mostly. There is some situations where it is best to put yourself into that you may need to use your firearm.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member modernknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Mostly. There is some situations where it is best to put yourself into that you may need to use your firearm.
    Examples perhaps?? Or links if there is any??

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    When a road-rager starts harrassing me, I simply slow down, move right, and call the *ABC number posted alongside the highways to report aggressive/dangerous drivers. They've all given up after a few seconds. One guy tailed me for about a mile before speeding up and flipping me off. I simply pretended like I didn't see him, and he sped off.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  14. #14
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by modernknight View Post
    Examples perhaps?? Or links if there is any??
    Mostly to protect people you love/care about. Say you hear an intruder in your house. You can either bar your door and forsake your family or you can, in an attempt to protect your family, confront the intruder.

    Or to protect someone against a BG with a melee weapon (knife/baseball bat). You may be able to defuse the situation simply by showing that you have a firearm.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  15. #15
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    You let him get the better of you. When stuff like this happens why not use it to practice anger management? Make a joke, avoid the guy. Instead you got sucked into playing a game that could have ended badly for you. You were really going to shoot an unarmed man over a little jockeying in traffic that could have EASILY been avoided by you? Not cool.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  16. #16
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    You let him get the better of you. When stuff like this happens why not use it to practice anger management? Make a joke, avoid the guy. Instead you got sucked into playing a game that could have ended badly for you. You were really going to shoot an unarmed man over a little jockeying in traffic that could have EASILY been avoided by you? Not cool.
    Thank for yet another one of your insightful posts. Tell me, how was him running me off the road so easily avoidable? I forgot that you were there, and saw everything.
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

  17. #17
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    Thank for yet another one of your insightful posts. Tell me, how was him running me off the road so easily avoidable? I forgot that you were there, and saw everything.
    In truth, reading your post he did not run you off the road, you escalated by laying on your horn (how does sounding your horn help in any situation except someone backing out of a driveway not seeing you?).

    When he stopped and got out why didn't you drive away? Oh, you saw a chance to indicate you had a firearm, once again proving that you take foolish chances. If the guy had gotten your license number and called in that you laid on your horn and then said you had a gun, what would your defense have been? You'd have possibly lost your carry permit and for what?

    You should analyze your driving because you are evidently doing something wrong, causing road rage, getting pulled over for reckless driving. There's still time to take stock and stop this trend.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  18. #18
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    I myself can't really comment as I'm stuck in the middle of the yard here with this one.
    Nothing better than a Glock.........except maybe another Glock!

  19. #19
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    In truth, reading your post he did not run you off the road, you escalated by laying on your horn (how does sounding your horn help in any situation except someone backing out of a driveway not seeing you?).

    When he stopped and got out why didn't you drive away? Oh, you saw a chance to indicate you had a firearm, once again proving that you take foolish chances. If the guy had gotten your license number and called in that you laid on your horn and then said you had a gun, what would your defense have been? You'd have possibly lost your carry permit and for what?

    You should analyze your driving because you are evidently doing something wrong, causing road rage, getting pulled over for reckless driving. There's still time to take stock and stop this trend.

    I'm not sure about you, but I use my horn to make other drivers alert. Not to try and "escalate" anything. He was turning into me, so I used it in an attempt to make him aware of what he was doing, because he clearly did not check any of his mirrors or look in his blind spot first. There you go, yet again, making assumptions for yourself.

    If you take the time to read my posts above, instead of being a nuisance and just commenting, you'll see. I already stated that I should have just driven away. Had my brother not gotten out of the car first and essentially made himself a target, I probably would have.

    I do not need to analyze my driving. I've had my license for almost 7 years, and have never gotten more than a parking ticket until this last week. I'm not sure what your problem is, but there's really no reason to think that every incident I post about it is automatically my fault. Maybe you're just a grumpy old man with nothing better to do; who knows? It's certainly not helping though, and is completely unnecessary. There's still time to take stock and stop this trend.
    Last edited by MainelyGlock; 06-09-2012 at 12:36 PM.
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

  20. #20
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWCook View Post
    I myself can't really comment as I'm stuck in the middle of the yard here with this one.
    Tell me what you're thinking
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

  21. #21
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    I'm not sure about you, but I use my horn to make other drivers alert. Not to try and "escalate" anything. He was turning into me, so I used it in an attempt to make him aware of what he was doing, because he clearly did not check any of his mirrors or look in his blind spot first. There you go, yet again, making assumptions for yourself.
    He had already cut you off. You braked successfully and did not hit him. If you had time to lay on the horn you had time to de-escalate and drive away. But as you saw, laying on the horn DID escalate matters and he went into road rage, which YOU caused by laying on the horn (not, evidently just giving a short honk to warn).

    Thus you lost control of the situation, stopped your car so your brother could get out and now want to appear blameless. You're not blameless, you need to be a better, more responsible driver and firearm carrier and not let your anger get the best of you. You could have told your brother to stay in the car, not stopped to let him unbuckle and get out.

    You posted here asking how you could have handled it better and I'm giving you advice. Take it or leave it. Your methods obviously need improving.

    PS - you never did give us a cite on what law in Maine allows you to speed in excess of 80 mph for reasons of personal safety. Please link it.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  22. #22
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    He had already cut you off. You braked successfully and did not hit him. If you had time to lay on the horn you had time to de-escalate and drive away. But as you saw, laying on the horn DID escalate matters and he went into road rage, which YOU caused by laying on the horn (not, evidently just giving a short honk to warn).

    Thus you lost control of the situation, stopped your car so your brother could get out and now want to appear blameless. You're not blameless, you need to be a better, more responsible driver and firearm carrier and not let your anger get the best of you. You could have told your brother to stay in the car, not stopped to let him unbuckle and get out.

    You posted here asking how you could have handled it better and I'm giving you advice. Take it or leave it. Your methods obviously need improving.

    PS - you never did give us a cite on what law in Maine allows you to speed in excess of 80 mph for reasons of personal safety. Please link it.
    ?


    False. Again, making things up. Did you ever take a reading comprehension class in school? He cut me off several times, and I used my horn several times. That's what it's there for. Simple! You seem to be on the same page as this guy who gets mad at me because he did something stupid. Twice. That certainly says a lot. His reaction to my car horn is nowhere near my fault, or in my control. You suggesting otherwise is illogical.

    You said I stopped the car so my brother could get out? Did you also miss the part where he braked right in front of me, forcing me to either stop or hit him? Or are you simply choosing to ignore than and convolute the story further? Me instructing him to stay in the car does not guarantee that he will do so, and it didn't.

    You're not giving advice, at all. You're [trying] to twist the story around, and re-tell it. Something I find a little strange. Bored?
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

  23. #23
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    an Audi cut me off out of nowhere and almost hit me. When I laid on the horn and switched to the furthest lane, he cut me off again and slammed on his brakes
    You said the above. Be honest - you 'laid on the horn' in an attempt to not just alert him, but to be provocative. People DO inadvertently cut drivers off but they don't 'slam on the brakes' to do so unless they have been provoked earlier. If he cut you off (which is what overly-entitled pre-road ragers say), and you didn't hit him and had not laid on the horn, NOTHING would have happened. You had no damage to your car, you had not outed yourself as a firearm carrier and you would not have risked your permit.

    You have to ask yourself what did you do to enable the initial event? Perhaps you were following too closely. Leave more room in the future. Failing to let a driver into the lane - be more courteous, allow merging.

    You have to ask yourself what could you have done to not cause subsequent stalking and cutting off? Consider not using your horn in a provocative manner.

    You have to ask yourself what could you have done to not allow your brother to get out of the car.

    HTH.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The point is that the OP did not do very well in avoiding/deescalating/evading. I have no problem with using the horn to warn a driver he is drifting into your lane - it's one of the reasons they are put on cars.

    But from there on you would have done better to stay out of the other driver's way. He caused you to slow down? Fine! Pull off to the side of the road and wait for him to get a mile or so up the road. You will be out what - five minutes? He sees you pull over and pulls over too? Call Officer Friendly and ask for help dealing with the situation - without mentioning that you have a gun. You are out what - 15 minutes?

    He pulls over ahead of you, gets out and starts back towards you? Pull back out and leave. Decide if you want to call for help or not.

    And I am well known for having disussions with myself about the driving ability and other characteristics of folks who I must share the road with. But I tend not to share those thoughts with the other drivers, no matter how sorely tempted or how easy it would be.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    @skidmark: Definitely not looking for sympathy. Like I posted, I'm trying to get input on how I could have handled it better, stuff like that. You are right; I really shouldn't have even given him the satisfaction of an argument. I was just so enraged that he just blatantly disregarded our safety, as well as his wife's, and got mad at me for something he did.

    I initially got out of the car because he started towards my brother after he said something to him. I was seated when he was walking towards me, but I moved in case he tried to become violent. Although he's 18, my brother is only about 5'8'', and this guy was easily my size (6'1''/200LBs.)

    That's what I was thinking, also, that the reference to my gun was kind of unnecessary. Although I did not find his person to be "life threatening" (I can handle my own fairly well), his actions were and I was really not looking to get into a physical altercation and spend the day in jail and writing statements. With my brother. I consider a 2,000+ pound car a deadly weapon, but I'm not sure if the state of ME does.

    Was it wrong to discreetly threaten my harasser with my gun and use it to diffuse the situation?
    As far as I can see you are still looking for sympathy and support for your actions and behavior. Not gonna get any from most of the folks here. You keep asking if what you did was OK/right/appropriate/ tactically sound. That all looks like approval-seeking behavior to me.

    And as for your closing question - YOU WERE WRONG! The handgun is just decoration on your belt until and unless it has come to be time to shoot - not to mention you have one, or to show it to the other person, or to fire a warning shot. If you mention it you should have pulled it, and if you pulled it you should have shot the other person until they were stopped and could no longer present an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. (I understand that some states say it is OK to make a "defensive display" - I just disagree with that notion.)


    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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