Road Rage and Guns

MainelyGlock said:

I'm not sure about you, but I use my horn to make other drivers alert. Not to try and "escalate" anything. He was turning into me, so I used it in an attempt to make him aware of what he was doing, because he clearly did not check any of his mirrors or look in his blind spot first. There you go, yet again, making assumptions for yourself.

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He had already cut you off. You braked successfully and did not hit him. If you had time to lay on the horn you had time to de-escalate and drive away. But as you saw, laying on the horn DID escalate matters and he went into road rage, which YOU caused by laying on the horn (not, evidently just giving a short honk to warn).

Thus you lost control of the situation, stopped your car so your brother could get out and now want to appear blameless. You're not blameless, you need to be a better, more responsible driver and firearm carrier and not let your anger get the best of you. You could have told your brother to stay in the car, not stopped to let him unbuckle and get out.

You posted here asking how you could have handled it better and I'm giving you advice. Take it or leave it. Your methods obviously need improving.

PS - you never did give us a cite on what law in Maine allows you to speed in excess of 80 mph for reasons of personal safety. Please link it.

sawah said:

He had already cut you off. You braked successfully and did not hit him. If you had time to lay on the horn you had time to de-escalate and drive away. But as you saw, laying on the horn DID escalate matters and he went into road rage, which YOU caused by laying on the horn (not, evidently just giving a short honk to warn).

Thus you lost control of the situation, stopped your car so your brother could get out and now want to appear blameless. You're not blameless, you need to be a better, more responsible driver and firearm carrier and not let your anger get the best of you. You could have told your brother to stay in the car, not stopped to let him unbuckle and get out.

You posted here asking how you could have handled it better and I'm giving you advice. Take it or leave it. Your methods obviously need improving.

PS - you never did give us a cite on what law in Maine allows you to speed in excess of 80 mph for reasons of personal safety. Please link it.

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?


False. Again, making things up. Did you ever take a reading comprehension class in school? He cut me off several times, and I used my horn several times. That's what it's there for. Simple! You seem to be on the same page as this guy who gets mad at me because he did something stupid. Twice. That certainly says a lot. His reaction to my car horn is nowhere near my fault, or in my control. You suggesting otherwise is illogical.

You said I stopped the car so my brother could get out? Did you also miss the part where he braked right in front of me, forcing me to either stop or hit him? Or are you simply choosing to ignore than and convolute the story further? Me instructing him to stay in the car does not guarantee that he will do so, and it didn't.

You're not giving advice, at all. You're [trying] to twist the story around, and re-tell it. Something I find a little strange. Bored?

an Audi cut me off out of nowhere and almost hit me. When I laid on the horn and switched to the furthest lane, he cut me off again and slammed on his brakes

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You said the above. Be honest - you 'laid on the horn' in an attempt to not just alert him, but to be provocative. People DO inadvertently cut drivers off but they don't 'slam on the brakes' to do so unless they have been provoked earlier. If he cut you off (which is what overly-entitled pre-road ragers say), and you didn't hit him and had not laid on the horn, NOTHING would have happened. You had no damage to your car, you had not outed yourself as a firearm carrier and you would not have risked your permit.

You have to ask yourself what did you do to enable the initial event? Perhaps you were following too closely. Leave more room in the future. Failing to let a driver into the lane - be more courteous, allow merging.

You have to ask yourself what could you have done to not cause subsequent stalking and cutting off? Consider not using your horn in a provocative manner.

You have to ask yourself what could you have done to not allow your brother to get out of the car.

HTH.

The point is that the OP did not do very well in avoiding/deescalating/evading. I have no problem with using the horn to warn a driver he is drifting into your lane - it's one of the reasons they are put on cars.

But from there on you would have done better to stay out of the other driver's way. He caused you to slow down? Fine! Pull off to the side of the road and wait for him to get a mile or so up the road. You will be out what - five minutes? He sees you pull over and pulls over too? Call Officer Friendly and ask for help dealing with the situation - without mentioning that you have a gun. You are out what - 15 minutes?

He pulls over ahead of you, gets out and starts back towards you? Pull back out and leave. Decide if you want to call for help or not.

And I am well known for having disussions with myself about the driving ability and other characteristics of folks who I must share the road with. But I tend not to share those thoughts with the other drivers, no matter how sorely tempted or how easy it would be.

stay safe.

MainelyGlock said:

@skidmark: Definitely not looking for sympathy. Like I posted, I'm trying to get input on how I could have handled it better, stuff like that. You are right; I really shouldn't have even given him the satisfaction of an argument. I was just so enraged that he just blatantly disregarded our safety, as well as his wife's, and got mad at me for something he did.

I initially got out of the car because he started towards my brother after he said something to him. I was seated when he was walking towards me, but I moved in case he tried to become violent. Although he's 18, my brother is only about 5'8'', and this guy was easily my size (6'1''/200LBs.)

That's what I was thinking, also, that the reference to my gun was kind of unnecessary. Although I did not find his person to be "life threatening" (I can handle my own fairly well), his actions were and I was really not looking to get into a physical altercation and spend the day in jail and writing statements. With my brother. I consider a 2,000+ pound car a deadly weapon, but I'm not sure if the state of ME does.

Was it wrong to discreetly threaten my harasser with my gun and use it to diffuse the situation?

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As far as I can see you are still looking for sympathy and support for your actions and behavior. Not gonna get any from most of the folks here. You keep asking if what you did was OK/right/appropriate/ tactically sound. That all looks like approval-seeking behavior to me.

And as for your closing question - YOU WERE WRONG! The handgun is just decoration on your belt until and unless it has come to be time to shoot - not to mention you have one, or to show it to the other person, or to fire a warning shot. If you mention it you should have pulled it, and if you pulled it you should have shot the other person until they were stopped and could no longer present an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. (I understand that some states say it is OK to make a "defensive display" - I just disagree with that notion.)


stay safe.

skidmark said:

As far as I can see you are still looking for sympathy and support for your actions and behavior. Not gonna get any from most of the folks here. You keep asking if what you did was OK/right/appropriate/ tactically sound. That all looks like approval-seeking behavior to me.

And as for your closing question - YOU WERE WRONG! The handgun is just decoration on your belt until and unless it has come to be time to shoot - not to mention you have one, or to show it to the other person, or to fire a warning shot. If you mention it you should have pulled it, and if you pulled it you should have shot the other person until they were stopped and could no longer present an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. (I understand that some states say it is OK to make a "defensive display" - I just disagree with that notion.)


stay safe.

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I'm asking because I am looking for opinions, or other ways to have handled the situation, which I have received. That's not the same as looking for approval, or sympathy. With the exception of sawah, I have learned quite a bit on how to handle it better should I ever find myself in a similar situation thanks to comments like the ones that you have made.

I was talking to an attorney today (more casually than because of this case specifically), and was advised that it would be unwise to file a police report because of the actions that my brother took. If he had not been verbally aggressive towards the man who nearly ran me off the road, it would be all set. I also should have done a better job of [physically] keeping him from exiting the vehicle. Next time I will most definitely drive off and bite my tongue.

Jack House said:

Should anything like this ever happen again, you should try and remember to call the police the moment they force you off the road. You have no idea what their intentions are. But considering their negligent behavior with regards to your safety and their own, it would be safe to assume they aren't selling Girl Scout cookies.

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Word. Always remember: You're armed, and it's not worth dying over today. Do your part to talk him off of that building he's about to jump off of...

Also remember: You're armed. You don't need this **** today. Take a break, drive normal.... but don't stop. Don't allow the situation to escalate when you may be able to escape. Don't put yourself into the killbox.

MainelyGlock said:

I'm asking because I am looking for opinions, or other ways to have handled the situation, which I have received. That's not the same as looking for approval, or sympathy. With the exception of sawah, I have learned quite a bit on how to handle it better should I ever find myself in a similar situation thanks to comments like the ones that you have made.

I was talking to an attorney today (more casually than because of this case specifically), and was advised that it would be unwise to file a police report because of the actions that my brother took. If he had not been verbally aggressive towards the man who nearly ran me off the road, it would be all set. I also should have done a better job of [physically] keeping him from exiting the vehicle. Next time I will most definitely drive off and bite my tongue.

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Get another attorney, that one sounds like a moron. I can't imagine any attorney not telling you how dumb your actions were. But I do understand him telling you not to file a police report because then he might have to represent you in a criminal case, though that seems a little dumb because then he can make more money.

Slamming on brakes and cutting you off intentionally is assault with a deadly weapon. Call 911 and tell them that and they are following you and were to meet a cop as you can bring them behind you. If they do cut you off to a stop and come at you tell them the police have been called and to stay away and that is the last word to be said to them or on here.

09jisaac said:

Mostly to protect people you love/care about. Say you hear an intruder in your house. You can either bar your door and forsake your family or you can, in an attempt to protect your family, confront the intruder.

Or to protect someone against a BG with a melee weapon (knife/baseball bat). You may be able to defuse the situation simply by showing that you have a firearm.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_izd39hq198

Maybe not the best example but this is at least on topic.

ickthus said:

Slamming on brakes and cutting you off intentionally is assault with a deadly weapon. Call 911 and tell them that and they are following you and were to meet a cop as you can bring them behind you. If they do cut you off to a stop and come at you tell them the police have been called and to stay away and that is the last word to be said to them or on here.

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Cite please.

Freedom1Man said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_izd39hq198

Maybe not the best example but this is at least on topic.

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The problem with Youtube is a lot of the uploads are scripted/acting/not real.

WalkingWolf said:

Get another attorney, that one sounds like a moron. I can't imagine any attorney not telling you how dumb your actions were. But I do understand him telling you not to file a police report because then he might have to represent you in a criminal case, though that seems a little dumb because then he can make more money.

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This attorney was not hired by me, so no need to get another one. Family friend and we were talking "off the clock", if that's a good way to put it. He/she was very quick to condemn both of our course of actions. I was advised against filing because it could lead to legal action against my brother or I because of his reaction, not because there was more money to be made off a potential trial.

Contrary to what a lot of you who have replied probably think, I do wish I had reacted differently. Thanks for everyone who posted helpful replies, even the ones telling me how dumb we were. I couldn't agree more, and definitely do not plan on letting that happen again.

Freedom1Man said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_izd39hq198

Maybe not the best example but this is at least on topic.

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Ha. I've seen that video a few times, and always wondered if it was staged or not. It's still amusing, regardless.

MainelyGlock said:

So, it's been an exciting week!

Today, some jack@$$ in an Audi cut me off out of nowhere and almost hit me. When I laid on the horn and switched to the furthest lane, he cut me off again and slammed on his brakes. I'm very fortunate to have just gotten my brakes re-done, or I would have hit this guy, as I'm sure he intended for me to do. This nut job exits the vehicle and starts towards my car, yelling at me. I get out of mine, as well as my brother, and exchange a few choice words with yet another deranged driver here in Portland. Meanwhile, this guys poor wife gets out as well and looks completely embarrassed. I asked why he felt the need to cut me off, and then get mad at me for using my horn, and then continue to endanger not just my life, but my brothers by slamming on his brakes in the middle of traffic. I get a nice "Who the F do you think you are?" and he starts walking towards me. My brother, who had literally just graduated high school an hour prior to this, tells him to stop being an @sshole and leave. He starts towards him, and I reach for my Glock. While keeping it holstered underneath my suit jacket(with my hand around it), I informed him that I was armed and that if he kept physically and verbally threatening us that I would have no choice to draw on him. Luckily, he left after that, but followed me for a good 20 more minutes right on my @ss.

Looking back, I don't think I needed to mention having a gun to him. I definitely could have handled it a little better, and been a little calmer, but putting a family members life in immediate danger is a no-no for me.

So, looking for feedback on how I could have handled the situation better, if there was anything else I should have done, etc. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get a full plate number, but I've got a decent description of the man and his car as well as the first four digits.

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Your story keeps changing. Just realize you made a mistake and you didn't handle this very well. Why did you not just back up and go around him?

I understand what you're saying about him stopping in front of you. I can sort of understand getting out if you were pinned in by traffic behind you... but you don't go towards the guy.. you get out and go to the rear of your vehicle.. as in retreating to cover, not being aggressive.. that way you can put the car between him and you... and have cover if he pulls out a gun...


I don't think you were wrong for using the horn... there is a possibility it could escalate, but I've had people come into my lane and I"m on the horn and the brakes hard....

I don't flip the bird though... and if someone wants to brake check me, I'm calling the cops. If they want to try to pull me over, I'm going to try avoiding them or maybe just stop and hope they will keep going.. If they are following I will drive to local cop shop with 911 on the phone....

HKcarrier said:

Your story keeps changing. Just realize you made a mistake and you didn't handle this very well. Why did you not just back up and go around him?

I understand what you're saying about him stopping in front of you. I can sort of understand getting out if you were pinned in by traffic behind you... but you don't go towards the guy.. you get out and go to the rear of your vehicle.. as in retreating to cover, not being aggressive.. that way you can put the car between him and you... and have cover if he pulls out a gun...


I don't think you were wrong for using the horn... there is a possibility it could escalate, but I've had people come into my lane and I"m on the horn and the brakes hard....

I don't flip the bird though... and if someone wants to brake check me, I'm calling the cops. If they want to try to pull me over, I'm going to try avoiding them or maybe just stop and hope they will keep going.. If they are following I will drive to local cop shop with 911 on the phone....

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Contrary to what a lot of you who have replied probably think, I do wish I had reacted differently. Thanks for everyone who posted helpful replies, even the ones telling me how dumb we were. I couldn't agree more, and definitely do not plan on letting that happen again.

This is not directed at the OP who appears to have seen the error of his ways but for the rest of the readers: There are two lessons here:

1:

Until the statute of limitations runs out, this guy is literally one phone call away from being a felon. If the other driver got his license plate, one call and the police will be knocking on his door. Felony menacing, brandishing a firearm, reckless endangerment – I’m sure a DA could come up with half a dozen more. It’d pretty much be a slam dunk case: Neither party backed down until the OP showed him his firearm and the OP had plenty of opportunities to go his separate way before then. By the “reasonable man” measure he was not reasonable, as the replies this [pro-gun] audience has shown. Imagine what would happen with a bunch of gun-haters on the jury. Lesson: Don't talk about close calls on the web, period.

2:

Pardon my French, but don’t freakn’ talk about stuff like this on line! The damage is done, the OPs original post that he didn’t deescalate as well as our replies are probably on several backups by now that can be subpoenaed for evidence if the above call happens. All of us that replied (my mistake) could be brought in for witnesses and asked for our [now documented] opinions in the case. Lesson: Don't reply to people that haven't learned the first lesson.

Now that I think about it, I made a big mistake by replying earlier to this thread* as did everyone else that didn’t agree with him. I have learned and will not reply to such posts in the future, as tempting as it may be – just as tempting as “laying on the horn” to punish someone in traffic. Except after laying on the horn you still have an opportunity to recover. Once it's out there on the interwebs, there's no going back.

O2

*This is why I don't even read the "True tales of self defense" section -- too much risk for me and the OPs. Got sucked into this one, though.

HKcarrier said:

Your story keeps changing. Just realize you made a mistake and you didn't handle this very well. Why did you not just back up and go around him?

I understand what you're saying about him stopping in front of you. I can sort of understand getting out if you were pinned in by traffic behind you... but you don't go towards the guy.. you get out and go to the rear of your vehicle.. as in retreating to cover, not being aggressive.. that way you can put the car between him and you... and have cover if he pulls out a gun...

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from OP: "This nut job exits the vehicle and starts towards my car, yelling at me. I get out of mine, as well as my brother, and exchange a few choice words"

Where does it say that he also went towards the guy? It doesn't, only that BG went towards him.

HighFlyingA380 said:

from OP: "This nut job exits the vehicle and starts towards my car, yelling at me. I get out of mine, as well as my brother, and exchange a few choice words"

Where does it say that he also went towards the guy? It doesn't, only that BG went towards him.

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I didn't mean to imply that he did... I just was illustrating that I ccould understand getting out, but only to retreat to the rear, not to stand ground, or approach....

Jack House said:

Should anything like this ever happen again, you should try and remember to call the police the moment they force you off the road. You have no idea what their intentions are. But considering their negligent behavior with regards to your safety and their own, it would be safe to assume they aren't selling Girl Scout cookies.

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This is also a good way to deescalate the situation, you continue to watch the person, but now you are interacting with the police dispatcher. It also never hurts to be the first person to report something . . . (I also like to start the conversation with the dispatcher by asking, "Is this is the _________ police department"? Nice and loud enough to hear . .

Most people who have not reached the critical threshold of rage to actually commit an assault will decide to leave at this point . . . which is also good becuase getting them to leave first is a good way to avoid being followed by someone who clearly has impulse control issues.

Despite your anger, the best things to do in this situation are as follows.

-Say nothing to escalate the situation.
-Do nothing to escalate the situation.
-If you genuinely believe the person is going to do something get on the phone with the police (I always have non-emergency numbers on speed dial)
-If you feel like you need to set out a threshold (ie draw a line in the sand) then do so without making any threats, or acknowledging your capabilities. Something to the effect of, "stop or I will defend myself", or "back off buddy no one wants to get hurt."

The best thing you can do is let them go. No flipping the bird, no gestures, just let them go on bye. Id rather have some deranged person well in front of me, than behind me.

The point is that the OP did not do very well in avoiding/deescalating/evading. I have no problem with using the horn to warn a driver he is drifting into your lane - it's one of the reasons they are put on cars.

But from there on you would have done better to stay out of the other driver's way. He caused you to slow down? Fine! Pull off to the side of the road and wait for him to get a mile or so up the road. You will be out what - five minutes? He sees you pull over and pulls over too? Call Officer Friendly and ask for help dealing with the situation - without mentioning that you have a gun. You are out what - 15 minutes?

He pulls over ahead of you, gets out and starts back towards you? Pull back out and leave. Decide if you want to call for help or not.

And I am well known for having disussions with myself about the driving ability and other characteristics of folks who I must share the road with. But I tend not to share those thoughts with the other drivers, no matter how sorely tempted or how easy it would be.

stay safe.

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Well said.