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Thread: Ammo Question from Another Newcomer

  1. #1
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Ammo Question from Another Newcomer

    Howdy Folks!
    I got a personal message from a newcomer yesterday, and it asks questions I had not previously considered.
    Since I am comfortable simply buying my ammo at one of our many gun shops around the metro area, I never really gave the subject much thought.
    So I'm just gonna post the PM I got, and hope somebody can throw in some insight.
    -----------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Skrappy
    Hello, I'm new to the forums and for some reason or another it will not let me post... I figure you are pretty in the know so I bring my question to you.
    When using Lethal Force here in Colorado does it matter what civilian ammunition you use? Specifically ammunition produced by Elite Ammunition(T6 5.7x28) and hand loads. I heard a rumor of a guy in another state being charged for use of "Excessive Lethal Force" because he had used hand loaded ammunition. If you know anything on the subject please hit me back as factory munitions just don't do it for me. Also maybe even re-post this as a thread in the forums so I can view others opinions as well. Not sure why I cannot post yet but I hope I can fix the problem soon.
    Thanks,
    Skrappy
    ------------------------------

    On another note, I wonder why the person who PM'ed me cannot post?
    Perhaps it is a browser issue. Perhaps a different browser might prove helpful.
    I dunno. Need a bit more information before I can offer any suggestions, really.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    There is no registered user with the user name "skrappy".

    There is no registered user with the user name "skrappy". Without registration, one does not have access to the OCDO PM protocol. Perhaps you are confused of which forum you are posting in.

  3. #3
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    There is no registered user with the user name "skrappy". Without registration, one does not have access to the OCDO PM protocol. Perhaps you are confused of which forum you are posting in.
    Howdy Pard!
    All I am confused about is this reply. I came onto the forum yesterday and saw the notification indicated I had a PM awaiting me. So I clicked it and it took me to my PM inbox. It is there, along with all my other emails. As I am not a member of any other firearms related forum, I don't think I am in position to be confused about which forum I am posting in. In addition, the individual who sent me the PM is from Broomfield, which is a city nearby.

    As for whether he is registered or not, it may be that he got himself registered under a different name, perhaps forgot the handle or such that he used to register, and that would explain why he has trouble trying to post. I dunno. Maybe he even used a different email address and forgot that he did so. I have several email addresses that I use for different purposes. For example, I have one for my personal email, another for my business as a process server, and another for bounty hunting specific stuff. I tend to use my personal email address to register for things like the OCDO forum or metal detecting forums, while I use my business email to register on sites that are specific to my professional pursuits.

    Regardless, it came to me as a PM through my OCDO inbox. I just copy/pasted to the forum to see what folks had to say on the question of ammo. Since I haven't really given that topic much consideration, I was curious about it myself.

    Kinda odd though, ain't it, that he doesn't show up as a registered member. Hmmm. Wonder what's up with that?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  4. #4
    Regular Member nkunnen's Avatar
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    I haven't really gave it much thought about self defense ammo would be legal or not.. I have hand loads that I load myself, and factory loaded federal hydro shocks. I would imagine as long as the ammo is legal to own then you could use it. I wouldn't be using incendiary rounds or something like that. There are LEO's that are issued everything from hollow points to fragmenting ammo. As far as getting in trouble for excessive lethal force just because of the ammo that you use, i cant imagine that happening.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    To answer the question though...

    I have never read a case where someone had used against them in court the type of ammo they used. Unless of course it was a banned ammo type.

    This rumor tends to make its rounds primarily around the interwebz from time to time. I've had people say it to me before. When I ask these people to provide a cite or ask why our police officers carry hollow points if they're so much extra deadly and inhumane, I usually get a blank stare in return.

    Carry the ammo that you feel comfortable will stop the threat should you ever need to defend yourself using deadly force. If you were justified in shooting your ammo selection wont matter.
    Last edited by Beau; 06-08-2012 at 08:57 AM.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

  6. #6
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    To answer the question though...

    I have never read a case where someone had used against them in court the type of ammo they used. Unless of course it was a banned ammo type.

    This rumor tends to make its rounds primarily around the interwebz from time to time. I've had people say it to me before. When I ask these people to provide a cite or ask why our police officers carry hollow points if they're so much extra deadly and inhumane, I usually get a blank stare in return.

    Carry the ammo that you feel comfortable will stop the threat should you ever need to defend yourself using deadly force. If you were justified in shooting your ammo selection wont matter.
    +1

    My words, precisely.

  7. #7
    Regular Member O2HeN2's Avatar
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    I agree with Beau, this rumor crops up from time to time, though I believe I recall reading a Massad Ayoob article on it maybe 20 years ago. Nevertheless, when I first heard it, I stopped to consider the self-defense ammo I was carrying and came to a conclusion: Carry the ammo your local LEOs carry.

    This may not always possible because I’ve heard that some departments carry ammo that’s for LEO distribution only, but it so happens that the El Paso County Sheriff’s department carries off-the-shelf Golden Sabre*, so that’s what I carry.

    If the prosecution were to try and make ammo an issue, when asked why I carried such-and-such a kind of ammunition I could honestly answer “I carry what the Sheriff’s department carries, you’ll have to ask them why they made that choice” – now the prosecution has to rake their buddies over the coals and make them look bad if they choose to press the issue further -- that's THE reason I carry my LEO's ammo -- to stop that red herring in its tracks (wake? )...

    For the record my 9mms carry the 147gr Golden Sabres; I ran some testing in low-light situations and was extremely impressed with the minimal muzzle flash versus other self-defense ammunition we had on hand. My .45 carries Golden Sabres too, but I haven’t gotten a chance to test those yet.

    O2

    * since9, since you just completed the Sheriff's Citizen's Academy (which is where I found out what kind of ammo they carried) do you know if this is still true? I haven’t checked lately.
    Last edited by O2HeN2; 06-08-2012 at 11:17 AM.
    When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
    They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
    Zero failures comes at infinite cost.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Skrappy's Avatar
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    I am registered :P just took OCDO an extra day to send me the confirmation email... not sure why. Anyhow, thanks for the responses to my question and a big thanks to M for posting the topic for me.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Freiheit417's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by O2HeN2 View Post
    I agree with Beau, this rumor crops up from time to time, though I believe I recall reading a Massad Ayoob article on it maybe 20 years ago. Nevertheless, when I first heard it, I stopped to consider the self-defense ammo I was carrying and came to a conclusion: Carry the ammo your local LEOs carry.

    I also recently saw Massad Ayoob point out the following on one of the shows on the Sportsman's Channel: Hand loads make it difficult for firearms forensics analysts to determine distance of the shots fired in a SD situation due to the variances of different powders and loads. They have no baseline for comparison on hand loads, so if one claims an attacker was at point-blank range and posed imminent danger, but a witness states the BG was 10 feet or more away, it could be an issue. This was Mas's viewpoint, not mine. He recommended to carry any legal factory-loaded ammo just to eliminate any possibility of misinterpretation of the powder residue analysis.
    America, where freedom* reigns.

    *Freedom subject to change depending on jurisdiction and availability. Some freedoms may not be available due to local political expedience or prevailing political correctness. Please check Federal, State, County, City, or any other special district for applicable laws governing the extents of freedoms prior to purchase.

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  10. #10
    Regular Member Half Live's Avatar
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    I always carry off the shelf ammo for 2 reasons.

    1. I don't reload ammo

    2. If I did or I used someone else's hand loads, they may be made wrong, or some bad powder or what ever and it might not go boom when the time comes.

  11. #11
    Regular Member O2HeN2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skrappy View Post
    I am registered :P just took OCDO an extra day to send me the confirmation email... not sure why. Anyhow, thanks for the responses to my question and a big thanks to M for posting the topic for me.
    Welcome to the board!

    O2
    When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
    They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
    Zero failures comes at infinite cost.

  12. #12
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skrappy View Post
    I am registered :P just took OCDO an extra day to send me the confirmation email... not sure why. Anyhow, thanks for the responses to my question and a big thanks to M for posting the topic for me.
    Howdy Again Amigo!
    You are most welcome. I hope you'll take time at some point to post an introduction with a bit of info about yourself. What town are you in? What got you interested in OC'ing? What sort of handgun do you prefer to OC with? What sort of OC experiences have you had? That sort of thing. Of course, if you're wanting to share such things as whether you're married or in a relationship, got kids, enjoy hobbies like camping and hiking, you can include those too if so inclined.

    In any event, welcome to the OCDO forums, and to the Colorado board in particular. You'll find a terrific group here, and you'll surely make a few new friends along the way. Count me as one of the first!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freiheit417 View Post
    I also recently saw Massad Ayoob point out the following on one of the shows on the Sportsman's Channel: Hand loads make it difficult for firearms forensics analysts to determine distance of the shots fired in a SD situation due to the variances of different powders and loads. They have no baseline for comparison on hand loads, so if one claims an attacker was at point-blank range and posed imminent danger, but a witness states the BG was 10 feet or more away, it could be an issue. This was Mas's viewpoint, not mine. He recommended to carry any legal factory-loaded ammo just to eliminate any possibility of misinterpretation of the powder residue analysis.
    It would seem to me you could estimate distance by the powder particles (burns) on the deceased fairly accurately. It really wouldn't make a lot of difference what powder is used as the pattern of the burn would be fairly obvious. Just a thought.

  14. #14
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    I carry the best round available. Speer Gold Dot is its name. The FBI's winning round (in all categories), and chosen as well by the majority of law enforcement.

    Choose regular Gold Dot for pistols with a barrel length of 4.25" and over, and Short barrel for the rest.

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