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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Myth Busters

    Tonight they had a new episode that basically showed the "Tueller Drill". The biggest problem I had is that the person with the gun had to rack it after drawing. It did despite the racking part confirm it.

    If you don't know what the Tueller Drill is try GOOGLE, or:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
    Last edited by golddigger14s; 06-11-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    I did despite the racking part confirm it.
    Clarification?

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    If the person had to rack the slide, then it is by definition NOT the Tueller drill, which assumes a sidearm that is ready to use.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental. For me, it's:

    1) Draw, 2) Aim, 3) Fire.

    For those who use a safety or have to rack the slide, it's:

    1) Draw, 2) Rack, 3) Safety Off, 4), Aim, 5) Fire.

    For UOC, it's:

    1) Draw firearm, 2) Draw magazine, 3) Insert Magazine, 4) Rack Slide, 5) Aim, 6) Fire
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental. For me, it's:

    1) Draw, 2) Aim, 3) Fire.

    For those who use a safety or have to rack the slide, it's:

    1) Draw, 2) Rack, 3) Safety Off, 4), Aim, 5) Fire....
    This is grossly misleading. There is ZERO additional time to put rounds on target when using a sidearm with a manual safety like the 1911. The safety is disengaged during the rotation of the draw, and only after rotation can the weapon be fired, either before, during, or after extension.

    In no way is it on the same planet as racking a slide.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-11-2012 at 03:33 AM.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    I agree, it doesn't take additional time to disengage the safety if you have the proper muscle memory and actually remember to do so.

    It's the remembering part that can get you.

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    I agree, it doesn't take additional time to disengage the safety if you have the proper muscle memory and actually remember to do so.

    It's the remembering part that can get you.

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    Regular Member porterhouse83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental. For me, it's:

    1) Draw, 2) Aim, 3) Fire.

    For those who use a safety or have to rack the slide, it's:

    1) Draw, 2) Rack, 3) Safety Off, 4), Aim, 5) Fire.

    For UOC, it's:

    1) Draw firearm, 2) Draw magazine, 3) Insert Magazine, 4) Rack Slide, 5) Aim, 6) Fire
    Why do you refuse to acknowledge that those who train with a manual safety can draw and fire just as fast you can?

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by porterhouse83 View Post
    Why do you refuse to acknowledge that those who train with a manual safety can draw and fire just as fast you can?
    If I was a guessing man (I am) I would say that he isn't refusing to acknowledge anything. He didn't even say what you are claiming he said (but can be construed to mean that) and probably hasn't been back since. He didn't even say it was hard for someone to disengage the safety in a timely manner. All he said was it was "Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental".

    This is true. Every step involved can lead to another failure. Since I carry an M&P, all I have to do is draw, aim, and shoot. Less steps for me to fail on than draw while disengaging the safety, aim and shoot. Notice, I too said nothing about the time it may take.
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    Regular Member O2HeN2's Avatar
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    Back to Mythbusters, the reason he was racking the slide is that they were casting the myth in the "Wild West" days when people carried single-action revolvers. He makes a comment early on about paint guns not being available in revolver format and substitutes a semi-auto* for which he has to make a "western" holster (the substituting a semi-auto comment is just before the holster-making scenes).

    Though never explained adequately, I deduced that the racking of the slide was to merely simulate the required cocking of a hammer if he had in fact been able to use a SA revolver for the test.

    Of course, it ends up being far slower than fanning the hammer (link), which was probably canceled out seeing that Jamie is far slower than a young aggressor.

    O2

    PS. Though it appears that he's not consistent -- in some tests he racks the slide, in some it appears he doesn't.

    * In other words "He rejects our reality and substitutes his own"
    Last edited by O2HeN2; 06-11-2012 at 12:15 PM.
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    Regular Member lysander6's Avatar
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    O2HeN2: "Though never explained adequately, I deduced that the racking of the slide was to merely simulate the required cocking of a hammer if he had in fact been able to use a SA revolver for the test."

    Racking of the slide outside of Israel speaks to discomfort in carrying a loaded handgun. I think it is simply the mistake of a novice practitioner or a lack of knowledge of how OC or CC is done.
    Last edited by lysander6; 06-11-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    If I was a guessing man (I am) I would say that he isn't refusing to acknowledge anything. He didn't even say what you are claiming he said (but can be construed to mean that) and probably hasn't been back since. He didn't even say it was hard for someone to disengage the safety in a timely manner. All he said was it was "Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental".

    This is true. Every step involved can lead to another failure. Since I carry an M&P, all I have to do is draw, aim, and shoot. Less steps for me to fail on than draw while disengaging the safety, aim and shoot. Notice, I too said nothing about the time it may take.
    ^^^This^^^ As they said, every extra step adds a failure point. It may not add time tho, because some tasks can be completed at the same time.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    ^^^This^^^ As they said, every extra step adds a failure point. ...
    I guess you guys shouldn't carry Glocks, XDs, Sigmas, M&Ps and the like. They have an articulating part in the trigger that can fail.

    And I sure hope you guys aren't using retention holsters.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-11-2012 at 02:28 PM.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I guess you guys shouldn't carry Glocks, XDs, Sigmas, M&Ps and the like. They have an articulating part in the trigger that can fail.
    A quality built machine will function under circumstances that it is designed for better than a human under stress.

    Firearms usually don't have "stressful" situations as they are designed for what we are using them for. Humans on the other hand, dump adrenaline into our system. This would be a good thing in primal "fight or flight" situations where muscle speed and strength (without much thought) is a good thing. Having to think about things slow our bodies down (because it adds another step). In a modern "fight or flight" situation, with a firearm, you have to do things in sequence. If I fail to do any step adequately then I fail to my task. Though training helps lessen problems, it can never completely get rid of them. So it is best to use things that can't make a mistake to support us where we are weak.

    Mechanical problems of quality firearms (like the ones you mentioned) are rare compared to people problems with quality firearms.
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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I guess you guys shouldn't carry Glocks, XDs, Sigmas, M&Ps and the like. They have an articulating part in the trigger that can fail.

    And I sure hope you guys aren't using retention holsters.
    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    A quality built machine will function under circumstances that it is designed for better than a human under stress.

    Firearms usually don't have "stressful" situations as they are designed for what we are using them for. Humans on the other hand, dump adrenaline into our system. This would be a good thing in primal "fight or flight" situations where muscle speed and strength (without much thought) is a good thing. Having to think about things slow our bodies down (because it adds another step). In a modern "fight or flight" situation, with a firearm, you have to do things in sequence. If I fail to do any step adequately then I fail to my task. Though training helps lessen problems, it can never completely get rid of them. So it is best to use things that can't make a mistake to support us where we are weak.

    Mechanical problems of quality firearms (like the ones you mentioned) are rare compared to people problems with quality firearms.
    Damn, beat me to the punch again. @MAC702, yes, I do carry an XD, in a Serpa. And if the "articulating part in the trigger" (trigger safety) can fail, but if it does it will fail to the "fire" mode. So even if it does fail, it won't cause the gun to stop working, just that one safety. Which, if your main safety (your brain) is working, it wont matter. But you can't get rid of every failure point. Using that logic, you should just get rid of your trigger sear, because that adds another failure point. While your at it, get rid of your extractor; you guessed it, one more failure point. Do you see where I'm going?
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    So remind me again what the problem is with carrying a gun with a thumb safety. Or are a lot of people in the habit of carrying unfamiliar firearms? Maybe I've been making a bad assumption.

    I'm thinking you guys need to be recommending revolvers to everybody.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-11-2012 at 11:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    And this is why we practice, practice, practice.
    Or have a gun w/o a safety needing to be actuated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I guess you guys shouldn't carry Glocks, XDs, Sigmas, M&Ps and the like. They have an articulating part in the trigger that can fail.

    And I sure hope you guys aren't using retention holsters.
    The "trigger safety" can not "fail" in the same sense that a manual safety can, if it breaks the gun will still fire. A retention holster is automatic, if you use a proper draw, there is no way for it to "fail", and if it breaks (I have had one break before) the latch simply falls off, and you are still able to draw, and properly designed it would be next to impossible to jam.

    A manual safety though, depending on design, and maintenance can engage itself (improper grip, safety design, wear, etc), and if it breaks it can leave the gun unable to fire. You can also forget to disengage it under stress, or not be able to (safety design that requires fine motor control, sweat, injury, grease, etc.).

    Whenever I carry handguns with manual safetys I always carry with the safetys "off" including "cocked and locked" handguns. I always carry condition 0.
    Last edited by Small_Arms_Collector; 07-18-2012 at 07:34 PM.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    Whenever I carry handguns with manual safetys I always carry with the safetys "off" including "cocked and locked" handguns. I always carry condition 1.
    Condition 1 is one in the pipe, hammer cocked and safety on. Condition 0 is one in the pipe, hammer cocked and safety disengaged. Condition 2 is one in the pipe and hammer down.

    So again, which condition do you carry in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Condition 1 is one in the pipe, hammer cocked and safety on. Condition 0 is one in the pipe, hammer cocked and safety disengaged. Condition 2 is one in the pipe and hammer down.

    So again, which condition do you carry in?
    Your right I wasn't thinking Condition 0.

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