Myth Busters

golddigger14s · Jun 11, 2012

Tonight they had a new episode that basically showed the "Tueller Drill". The biggest problem I had is that the person with the gun had to rack it after drawing. It did despite the racking part confirm it.

If you don't know what the Tueller Drill is try GOOGLE, or:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Jack House · Jun 11, 2012

golddigger14s said:
I did despite the racking part confirm it.

Clarification?

MAC702 · Jun 11, 2012

If the person had to rack the slide, then it is by definition NOT the Tueller drill, which assumes a sidearm that is ready to use.

since9 · Jun 11, 2012

Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental. For me, it's:

1) Draw, 2) Aim, 3) Fire.

For those who use a safety or have to rack the slide, it's:

1) Draw, 2) Rack, 3) Safety Off, 4), Aim, 5) Fire.

For UOC, it's:

1) Draw firearm, 2) Draw magazine, 3) Insert Magazine, 4) Rack Slide, 5) Aim, 6) Fire

MAC702 · Jun 11, 2012

since9 said:
Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental. For me, it's:

1) Draw, 2) Aim, 3) Fire.

For those who use a safety or have to rack the slide, it's:

1) Draw, 2) Rack, 3) Safety Off, 4), Aim, 5) Fire....

This is grossly misleading. There is ZERO additional time to put rounds on target when using a sidearm with a manual safety like the 1911. The safety is disengaged during the rotation of the draw, and only after rotation can the weapon be fired, either before, during, or after extension.

In no way is it on the same planet as racking a slide.

Jack House · Jun 11, 2012

I agree, it doesn't take additional time to disengage the safety if you have the proper muscle memory and actually remember to do so.

It's the remembering part that can get you.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

Bookman · Jun 11, 2012

Jack House said:
I agree, it doesn't take additional time to disengage the safety if you have the proper muscle memory and actually remember to do so.

It's the remembering part that can get you.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

And this is why we practice, practice, practice.

porterhouse83 · Jun 11, 2012

since9 said:
Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental. For me, it's:

1) Draw, 2) Aim, 3) Fire.

For those who use a safety or have to rack the slide, it's:

1) Draw, 2) Rack, 3) Safety Off, 4), Aim, 5) Fire.

For UOC, it's:

1) Draw firearm, 2) Draw magazine, 3) Insert Magazine, 4) Rack Slide, 5) Aim, 6) Fire

Why do you refuse to acknowledge that those who train with a manual safety can draw and fire just as fast you can?

09jisaac · Jun 11, 2012

porterhouse83 said:
Why do you refuse to acknowledge that those who train with a manual safety can draw and fire just as fast you can?

If I was a guessing man (I am) I would say that he isn't refusing to acknowledge anything. He didn't even say what you are claiming he said (but can be construed to mean that) and probably hasn't been back since. He didn't even say it was hard for someone to disengage the safety in a timely manner. All he said was it was "Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental".

This is true. Every step involved can lead to another failure. Since I carry an M&P, all I have to do is draw, aim, and shoot. Less steps for me to fail on than draw while disengaging the safety, aim and shoot. Notice, I too said nothing about the time it may take.

O2HeN2 · Jun 11, 2012

Back to Mythbusters, the reason he was racking the slide is that they were casting the myth in the "Wild West" days when people carried single-action revolvers. He makes a comment early on about paint guns not being available in revolver format and substitutes a semi-auto* for which he has to make a "western" holster (the substituting a semi-auto comment is just before the holster-making scenes).

Though never explained adequately, I deduced that the racking of the slide was to merely simulate the required cocking of a hammer if he had in fact been able to use a SA revolver for the test.

Of course, it ends up being far slower than fanning the hammer (link), which was probably canceled out seeing that Jamie is far slower than a young aggressor.

O2

PS. Though it appears that he's not consistent -- in some tests he racks the slide, in some it appears he doesn't.

* In other words "He rejects our reality and substitutes his own"

lysander6 · Jun 11, 2012

O2HeN2: "Though never explained adequately, I deduced that the racking of the slide was to merely simulate the required cocking of a hammer if he had in fact been able to use a SA revolver for the test."

Racking of the slide outside of Israel speaks to discomfort in carrying a loaded handgun. I think it is simply the mistake of a novice practitioner or a lack of knowledge of how OC or CC is done.

HighFlyingA380 · Jun 11, 2012

09jisaac said:
If I was a guessing man (I am) I would say that he isn't refusing to acknowledge anything. He didn't even say what you are claiming he said (but can be construed to mean that) and probably hasn't been back since. He didn't even say it was hard for someone to disengage the safety in a timely manner. All he said was it was "Each additional step required between threat ID and sending lead towards it is detrimental".

This is true. Every step involved can lead to another failure. Since I carry an M&P, all I have to do is draw, aim, and shoot. Less steps for me to fail on than draw while disengaging the safety, aim and shoot. Notice, I too said nothing about the time it may take.

^^^This^^^ As they said, every extra step adds a failure point. It may not add time tho, because some tasks can be completed at the same time.

MAC702 · Jun 11, 2012

HighFlyingA380 said:
^^^This^^^ As they said, every extra step adds a failure point. ...

I guess you guys shouldn't carry Glocks, XDs, Sigmas, M&Ps and the like. They have an articulating part in the trigger that can fail.

And I sure hope you guys aren't using retention holsters.

09jisaac · Jun 11, 2012

MAC702 said:
I guess you guys shouldn't carry Glocks, XDs, Sigmas, M&Ps and the like. They have an articulating part in the trigger that can fail.

A quality built machine will function under circumstances that it is designed for better than a human under stress.

Firearms usually don't have "stressful" situations as they are designed for what we are using them for. Humans on the other hand, dump adrenaline into our system. This would be a good thing in primal "fight or flight" situations where muscle speed and strength (without much thought) is a good thing. Having to think about things slow our bodies down (because it adds another step). In a modern "fight or flight" situation, with a firearm, you have to do things in sequence. If I fail to do any step adequately then I fail to my task. Though training helps lessen problems, it can never completely get rid of them. So it is best to use things that can't make a mistake to support us where we are weak.

Mechanical problems of quality firearms (like the ones you mentioned) are rare compared to people problems with quality firearms.

HighFlyingA380 · Jun 11, 2012

MAC702 said:
I guess you guys shouldn't carry Glocks, XDs, Sigmas, M&Ps and the like. They have an articulating part in the trigger that can fail.

And I sure hope you guys aren't using retention holsters.

09jisaac said:
A quality built machine will function under circumstances that it is designed for better than a human under stress.

Firearms usually don't have "stressful" situations as they are designed for what we are using them for. Humans on the other hand, dump adrenaline into our system. This would be a good thing in primal "fight or flight" situations where muscle speed and strength (without much thought) is a good thing. Having to think about things slow our bodies down (because it adds another step). In a modern "fight or flight" situation, with a firearm, you have to do things in sequence. If I fail to do any step adequately then I fail to my task. Though training helps lessen problems, it can never completely get rid of them. So it is best to use things that can't make a mistake to support us where we are weak.

Mechanical problems of quality firearms (like the ones you mentioned) are rare compared to people problems with quality firearms.

Damn, beat me to the punch again. @MAC702, yes, I do carry an XD, in a Serpa. And if the "articulating part in the trigger" (trigger safety) can fail, but if it does it will fail to the "fire" mode. So even if it does fail, it won't cause the gun to stop working, just that one safety. Which, if your main safety (your brain) is working, it wont matter. But you can't get rid of every failure point. Using that logic, you should just get rid of your trigger sear, because that adds another failure point. While your at it, get rid of your extractor; you guessed it, one more failure point. Do you see where I'm going?

MAC702 · Jun 11, 2012

So remind me again what the problem is with carrying a gun with a thumb safety. Or are a lot of people in the habit of carrying unfamiliar firearms? Maybe I've been making a bad assumption.

I'm thinking you guys need to be recommending revolvers to everybody.

davidmcbeth · Jul 17, 2012

Bookman said:
And this is why we practice, practice, practice.

Or have a gun w/o a safety needing to be actuated?

Small_Arms_Collector · Jul 17, 2012

MAC702 said:
I guess you guys shouldn't carry Glocks, XDs, Sigmas, M&Ps and the like. They have an articulating part in the trigger that can fail.

And I sure hope you guys aren't using retention holsters.

The "trigger safety" can not "fail" in the same sense that a manual safety can, if it breaks the gun will still fire. A retention holster is automatic, if you use a proper draw, there is no way for it to "fail", and if it breaks (I have had one break before) the latch simply falls off, and you are still able to draw, and properly designed it would be next to impossible to jam.

A manual safety though, depending on design, and maintenance can engage itself (improper grip, safety design, wear, etc), and if it breaks it can leave the gun unable to fire. You can also forget to disengage it under stress, or not be able to (safety design that requires fine motor control, sweat, injury, grease, etc.).

Whenever I carry handguns with manual safetys I always carry with the safetys "off" including "cocked and locked" handguns. I always carry condition 0.

Jack House · Jul 17, 2012

Small_Arms_Collector said:
Whenever I carry handguns with manual safetys I always carry with the safetys "off" including "cocked and locked" handguns. I always carry condition 1.

Condition 1 is one in the pipe, hammer cocked and safety on. Condition 0 is one in the pipe, hammer cocked and safety disengaged. Condition 2 is one in the pipe and hammer down.

So again, which condition do you carry in?

Dogbait · Jul 17, 2012

Video:
[video=youtube;ckz7EmDxhtU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz7EmDxhtU[/video]

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