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Thread: Examples of why I got involved

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Examples of why I got involved

    I saw this link posted in a facebook posting. When I read the story, I was pretty much horrified. This is exactly why I have started becoming more involved in protecting my family and making sure that my wife is competent enough to take care of herself.

    http://www.gunstories.org/gunstories/story?sid=101

    I don't really fault the police. But wow, 14 minutes to get to the house. Criminals COUNT on that time and know they have that window to get in and out. I can't imagine how I would feel if that happened to my wife. It makes me angry and makes me want to go to a range and get the guys again for her, even if they are just paper targets.

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    Glad it didn't turn out any worse for them, but it makes me so sad when it takes this kind of tragedy to make people realize the importance of self protection.

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    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    That's so intense. And exactly the reason why I plan on buying my Mother a handgun once my brothers are out of the house.
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    That's so intense. And exactly the reason why I plan on buying my Mother a handgun once my brothers are out of the house.
    Don't take this the wrong way. Please. I'm new to the world of home defense so I'm no expert. I will say this from what I've learned. Be SURE to teach her how to use it. And make sure she practices. Even from that story above you will notice that this was a gun friendly house and the wife did not know exactly what to do. One of the best personal defense instructors I've heard said that the myth is you will revert back to the highest level of training you have taken, but that's not true. He said the truth is, you will revert back to the highest level you have mastered. So if you have zero training, you know where that's going.

    I started getting my wife more aware of the realities of protection in the last month. I promised her I would never chamber a live round in the house for her peace of mind. Guess who was the first person in my house to chamber a live round? She did. She saw several videos of training and explanations from the experts. Even heard a lady say "I used to think if the gun was away and locked it was safe. Now I know that if the gun is away and locked, I'm not safe." She has become MUCH more aware of the realities of time and how little you have.

    Sorry for the diatribe. I'm not directing it at you personally. I'm just venting a little anxiety about the fact that people can take this WAY too lightly (not you btw) and often those are the people who think "well I should have..." after it's too late.

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    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way. Please. I'm new to the world of home defense so I'm no expert. I will say this from what I've learned. Be SURE to teach her how to use it. And make sure she practices. Even from that story above you will notice that this was a gun friendly house and the wife did not know exactly what to do. One of the best personal defense instructors I've heard said that the myth is you will revert back to the highest level of training you have taken, but that's not true. He said the truth is, you will revert back to the highest level you have mastered. So if you have zero training, you know where that's going.

    I started getting my wife more aware of the realities of protection in the last month. I promised her I would never chamber a live round in the house for her peace of mind. Guess who was the first person in my house to chamber a live round? She did. She saw several videos of training and explanations from the experts. Even heard a lady say "I used to think if the gun was away and locked it was safe. Now I know that if the gun is away and locked, I'm not safe." She has become MUCH more aware of the realities of time and how little you have.

    Sorry for the diatribe. I'm not directing it at you personally. I'm just venting a little anxiety about the fact that people can take this WAY too lightly (not you btw) and often those are the people who think "well I should have..." after it's too late.
    Oh, I will undoubtedly teach her how to shoot. Thought that went without saying haha. Unless it's a 12GA where all she needs to do is point and pull the trigger(more or less with some 00), many hours will be spent at the range.

    Glad your wife is becoming more comfortable with having "live" guns in the house. In my opinion, even having it in the drawer of my nightstand is too far, much less a gun safe. What videos did she watch that helped change her mind?
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    Oh, I will undoubtedly teach her how to shoot. Thought that went without saying haha. Unless it's a 12GA where all she needs to do is point and pull the trigger(more or less with some 00), many hours will be spent at the range.

    Glad your wife is becoming more comfortable with having "live" guns in the house. In my opinion, even having it in the drawer of my nightstand is too far, much less a gun safe. What videos did she watch that helped change her mind?
    I figured, like I said, wasn't really directed at you personally. Just in general.

    I don't know the names, but it was a few. One was an episode of Gun Talk TV where they were teaching first time shooters (all women) the basics of self defense. That's when she realized how dangerous and close things can be, and more importantly that there are ways to deal with situations that have her paralyzed with fear. Like, what if he grabs me? How do I stop him if he's already got me? Stuff like that. They showed some great close quarters drills that she kind of did that "Oh, that would work" bit. It also showed her that there's no way she could rack the slide in that situation. So she suddenly goes, you have to have a bullet in the chamber to do that don't you? So she started practicing racking the slide and realized she could not possibly do it in a defensive situation.

    The other ones are on youtube. On series is by Personal Defense Network. GREAT videos. And the others are by Jim Yeager of Tactical Response, Inc. Look up Jim Yeager, (warning Jim swears freely so if that bothers you, maybe ease off oh his videos).

    And amazingly enough, the Mythbusters last night where they did knive to a gun fight made her realize how quick things can happen if you are attacked. Even though there were so many flaws in that test that it made it useless and invalid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    Even though there were so many flaws in that test that it made it useless and invalid.
    Such as? It was flawed in that the parties were expecting an attack and I could think of other scenarios that they could have run, but knowing how much experimenting they do "off camera", I think it was as good a test as could be and still be TV-worthy for a wide audience.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 06-11-2012 at 12:56 PM.

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    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    I figured, like I said, wasn't really directed at you personally. Just in general.

    I don't know the names, but it was a few. One was an episode of Gun Talk TV where they were teaching first time shooters (all women) the basics of self defense. That's when she realized how dangerous and close things can be, and more importantly that there are ways to deal with situations that have her paralyzed with fear. Like, what if he grabs me? How do I stop him if he's already got me? Stuff like that. They showed some great close quarters drills that she kind of did that "Oh, that would work" bit. It also showed her that there's no way she could rack the slide in that situation. So she suddenly goes, you have to have a bullet in the chamber to do that don't you? So she started practicing racking the slide and realized she could not possibly do it in a defensive situation.

    The other ones are on youtube. On series is by Personal Defense Network. GREAT videos. And the others are by Jim Yeager of Tactical Response, Inc. Look up Jim Yeager, (warning Jim swears freely so if that bothers you, maybe ease off oh his videos).

    And amazingly enough, the Mythbusters last night where they did knive to a gun fight made her realize how quick things can happen if you are attacked. Even though there were so many flaws in that test that it made it useless and invalid.
    Thanks for the suggestions. I've watched almost every video on the PDN channel, and that guy has some really good stuff. I wish I had the space to put some if it into practice, such as shooting from the interior or exterior of a vehicle. Another one I like was him showing how to effectively fire from the hip when you're inches away from an attacker.

    Did they run through Tueller drills on that show, or what?
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Such as? It was flawed in that the parties were expecting an attack and I could think of other scenarios that they could have run, but knowing how much experimenting they do "off camera", I think it was as good a test as could be and still be TV-worthy for a wide audience.
    Oh I've got a laundry list of flaws. Where to begin. Ok, let's start here. At the beginning Adam mentions that he has to use a modern gun replica because they couldn't find a revolver that shot paint pellets. Even if that's 100% true, which is suspect, he further ruins the premise by making is own holster. Now either you plan to do a full "wild west" style deal, or you forgo the wild west for modern scenario. The whole thing was couched as wild west. OK, let's assume that's the foundation. And let's assume you really can't get a paintball gun in revolver. (why not use airsoft?) How many revolvers do you know of require you to rack a slide? Revolvers are either SA or DA. And odds are any gunfighter who's survived a fight or 2 is going to prefer a DA because it's more reliable in the heat of battle, cause even if you can't cock the hammer you can always pull a trigger. So more than likely this would be a DA revolver. Which means no need to cock or slide anything. Then to make it even worse, he makes a crappy non-fitting holster that isn't set up like a gunfighter with a notched front. Then to insult us even more, he goes for typical stupid hollywood showmanship and switches the gun half way through to a ridiculous Desert Eagle mock-up that doesn't even fit his original holster. And he doesn't even know how to use. No wonder he kept hanging up on the barrel.

    So we have a guy who doesn't know what he's doing using a gun that doesn't fit the period in a holster that doesn't fit the gun trying to draw down on a guy with a knife. Now let's talk about the knife side a bit. Are you really gonna allow someone to face you down with a knife and NOT draw your pistol? If he's 20 feet away and he's got a knife in hand and threatening me, I've already got my gun out. I may not point it at him, but you can sure bet it's in hand and ready. So it would have been better to force the knife guy to be "holstered" as well. Take the time to draw and run just like the gun. As soon as you see that arm move and him coming, you're on your gun.

    Now let's talk about the gun position again. How many gunfighters would you suspect head into a gunfight without a round chambered. How many do it now? I'm betting none. And how many have the safety on? Remember in the episode Adam makes a point of mentioning the safety is on. Heck even if you don't pull the gun, you're probably going to at least thumb the safety before anything goes down.

    So either this is a wild west quick draw, in which case Adam should have had at least DA pistol. OR it's a modern version in which case he should have had an adequate holster and rig with a round chambered. And to top it all off, Adam didn't move. How many modern defense classes teach you to stand perfectly still when being rushed? It's all just so full of holes.

    Just for kicks, I went back and tested myself against the 16 foot mark. Cue'd up the tape and ran the drill with my gun. (empty of course). Chambered a fake round (dry fire) and holstered it. Waited for the start, and followed the action. I was able to draw and fire before Jamie made it 6 feet. (and I suck btw). SO I thought maybe it's just the chambered thing. So I went back, no mag, no round, and put my empty gun into it's holster. This would make me have to rack the slide and fire. Once again, I'm no expert, but I was able to draw, rack and fire by the time Jamie made it to within 6 feet or so. Long enough that I thought, wow, I could have probably got 2 or 3 shots off even. Now, would he have got me with the knife? Maybe, but when you combine the draw and side step motion, he might have only gotten my shoulder which means I live. Even though I'm probably hurt. (remember, Adam even mentioned that he was faster when being attacked because he was motivated more.)

    And none of this takes into account the training aspect. I know for a fact that if I was staring down an elite trained person with a knife, he's gonna get me. He's just better than me and he'd have me before I blink. And vice versa. An elite trained guy with a gun is gonna be all over a nut with a knife. But I bet a moderately trained person could take on the moderately trained knife guy and stand a better chance. Granted both are probably gonna get hurt. Bottom line in my mind is, it was just super flawed. Why not go with the California Open Carry options and see who wins. You know prior to the new law. Unloaded and magazine in a pouch. I bet that wakes up some of the fruits and nuts out there.
    Last edited by mobiushky; 06-11-2012 at 02:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    Thanks for the suggestions. I've watched almost every video on the PDN channel, and that guy has some really good stuff. I wish I had the space to put some if it into practice, such as shooting from the interior or exterior of a vehicle. Another one I like was him showing how to effectively fire from the hip when you're inches away from an attacker.

    Did they run through Tueller drills on that show, or what?
    I didn't see a Tueller, but they might have. The one that showed her was a close contact drill. Where they were within a foot and had to keep one hand toward the top left of the target. Not on the target. That simulated them being grabbed. They were teaching them to draw and fire from the rib cage in a close contact presentation. Think of the 4 steps of the tactical draw. Drawing the gun, rotating the elbow down, pressing forward, and pulling the trigger. They stopped at rotating the elbow. Taught the ladies to draw and rotate but to fire as soon as they did. Then step back and resume a full press out and fire as they were walking backwards. The first shot was literally 1 foot from the target. It's a little daunting to me, but it makes sense if you have been assaulted.

    She also saw one of PDN's videos about shooting an attacker that grabbed from behind. In that case, the attacker is grasping and one hand is being used to protect the throat area. They taught to draw and fire into the attackers thigh. She lit up and said "I never thought of that!" Either case, can't be done without a round in the chamber.

    this video from James Yeager shows the draw I'm talking about.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbqiy1MTi3Q

    Imagine stopping at the elbow down portion.
    Last edited by mobiushky; 06-11-2012 at 03:14 PM.

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    I didn't see a Tueller, but they might have. The one that showed her was a close contact drill. Where they were within a foot and had to keep one hand toward the top left of the target. Not on the target. That simulated them being grabbed. They were teaching them to draw and fire from the rib cage in a close contact presentation.
    Imagine stopping at the elbow down portion.
    I did a live demo of that this weekend at my range, as well as a few weeks ago.. I train on firing from "3" of presentation (close guard) all the time, I can get off 2 rounds into lower abdomen from close guard and back out of quarters (2-3 feet) firing the 8 remaining rounds in less than 3 seconds..

    I recommend a LOT LOT LOT of dry fire and crawl / walk / run when moving to live fire.. remember position 1 in presentation, left arm is either on chest or UP clear of muzzle.. oh.. and maybe do this only w/ a GOOD instructor around..

    --Rob
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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    I did a live demo of that this weekend at my range, as well as a few weeks ago.. I train on firing from "3" of presentation (close guard) all the time, I can get off 2 rounds into lower abdomen from close guard and back out of quarters (2-3 feet) firing the 8 remaining rounds in less than 3 seconds..

    I recommend a LOT LOT LOT of dry fire and crawl / walk / run when moving to live fire.. remember position 1 in presentation, left arm is either on chest or UP clear of muzzle.. oh.. and maybe do this only w/ a GOOD instructor around..

    --Rob
    Definitely with an instructor. Thanks for pointing that out.

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Here's a great example of the drill I was talking about. Like Rob said, do it with a trainer!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH...eature=related

    Watch at about 5:20 on or so.

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    Here's a great example of the drill I was talking about. Like Rob said, do it with a trainer!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH...eature=related

    Watch at about 5:20 on or so.
    My demo looks almost exactly the same except, I fire 2 rounds at close guard, and back out / away from the 'bad guy' firing additional rounds if needed. I'd have to video it sometime.. ugh.. hard to explain.. Almost like half a 'yo yo drill'


    --Rob
    Last edited by Bellum_Intus; 06-12-2012 at 03:45 PM.
    Kenaz Tactical Group

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    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    My demo looks almost exactly the same except, I fire 2 rounds at close guard, and back out / away from the 'bad guy' firing additional rounds if needed. I'd have to video it sometime.. ugh.. hard to explain.. Almost like half a 'yo yo drill'


    --Rob
    I totally understand. That's what the video my wife watched showed, more like yours. This guy didn't walk back, but he does mention that the initial shots are really just to shock the attacker and give you the chance to move back.

    What I thought was great about the Gun Talk TV thing was that they made a point to explain to the ladies that there would be a lot of hot air and shock wave blown back at them due to the close nature. They wanted them to get past that shock and still be able to fire the second shot. Most of them didn't the first time because they were so shocked by the blast, they stopped. It took them all about 5-10 shots to finally know what to expect and be able to fire a second quick shot.

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    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    I really wish I had the time, land, and money to practice some of these drills. The indoor range I go to doesn't even allow holster draw. Booo.
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    I really wish I had the time, land, and money to practice some of these drills. The indoor range I go to doesn't even allow holster draw. Booo.
    Two words: snap caps. There are smart phone apps that you can calibrate to the sound of a dry fire. Not the same, but better than nothing.

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    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Two words: snap caps. There are smart phone apps that you can calibrate to the sound of a dry fire. Not the same, but better than nothing.
    Would you happen to know the name of one? Funny you mention snap caps; I just bought some for my Mossberg and didn't even think of getting any for my Glock. I bet my roommates would love it if they came home and saw me doing shotgun-to-pistol and reloading drills in the living room!
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    Would you happen to know the name of one? Funny you mention snap caps; I just bought some for my Mossberg and didn't even think of getting any for my Glock. I bet my roommates would love it if they came home and saw me doing shotgun-to-pistol and reloading drills in the living room!
    I use a smartphone app called IPSC shot timer, works like most shot timers, but it's 9.99.. free version available too..

    Not sure thats what you are looking for.. but it will time to snap cap / dry fire.

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

  20. #20
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    I use a smartphone app called IPSC shot timer, works like most shot timers, but it's 9.99.. free version available too..

    Not sure thats what you are looking for.. but it will time to snap cap / dry fire.

    --Rob
    I will check it out for sure, thanks for the suggestion!
    Once more into the fray.
    Into the last good fight I'll ever know.
    Live and die on this day.
    Live and die on this day.



    "I knew one thing: as soon as anyone said you didn't need a gun, you'd better take one along that worked."
    Raymond Chandler

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    I will check it out for sure, thanks for the suggestion!
    If you have an android phone the IPSC shot timer (Beta) is free. there is also another free timer called ShotTimer. It's not as fancy looking, but it has some features the other doesn't. I use both, but I like the look of the IPSC timer better.

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