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Thread: Philosophical question regarding how we handle ourselves while OCing.

  1. #26
    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Let me start by saying this: My personality doesnt change whether I am armed or not. The only difference is that I go into what I call "critical awareness" mode when carrying. Its almost like a switch. When my side arm is on....awareness is up. I take more care to be aware of my surroundings, and question things, mentally, more often than I do when I am not carrying.

    Unlike alot of stories you will hear on OCDO and youtube, most of my LEO encounters have gone well. But I treat each encounter differently, depending on the officers attitude. If an officer walks up, and politely asks to talk, then I will generally agree. If he continues to be polite, I will as well. I may tell him my first name, but will not give up my ID. His questions will go unanswered, but I will continue to be polite. After a few minutes to be sure he is aware that I am not a criminal, just by our "conversation", I will ask if I am free to go, and go on my way.

    On the other hand, if an officer walks up with a bad attitude, things change quickly. I immediatley inform him that "I do not consent to this conversation. I do not consent to a search and seizure of my person or property. Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" And thats it. Conversation, at least from my end, is over. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    I have recorded 7 police encounters. 5 of which were deleted, because I use the rule, "No Harm, No Foul." I dont complain to their superiors, as long as I am not overly detained and harassed. The other two recordings were brought to the chief and the sheriff, respectively, with complaints filed. The reason that most people havent heard about the two bad ones, is that the situations were taken care of to my satisfaction.

    I dont bait police. I dont go out trying to draw attention to myself. I simply go out to do my thing, then go home.
    That is exactly the same philosophy I use when handling the LEOs in my neck of the woods. I have had one instance with an agressive policeman. This was before I even started to intentionally open carry. Someone saw my concealed carry and called in an MWAG. Guy showed up with his weapon drawn but not pointed at me and was pretty agressive. At the time I didn't know all of my rights, but I did know that he was wrong, so I called the state patrol on him. Egg on his face. That was actually one of the reasons I started doing some research and started OCing.

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  2. #27
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    I'm a little confused... if the only encounters that you've ever had with LEOs stayed casual, then how can they be the "exception" 2 of 2 would be 100% by my math.

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    Obviously.

    Permit me to assist you. "Those two incidents were the exception regarding the LEOs on my little town's force."
    You hold the same definition of casual as does LE. In my view, unless invited by me, any contact by a LEO while he is on the clock is not a casual encounter. It is a official investigation by that LEO.

    Cop: "How ya doing? Nice day, could we chat privately for a moment? I really dislike this part of my job, but we got a report of a fella who is reported to have a gun. I support your right to carry but we gotta check these things out. I hope you understand that I'm just doing my job. I'm really sorry about this....ya got any ID?" "Also, do you mind if I hold your pistol? For your safety and mine of course."

    If I have not violated the law that LEO is interfering with my liberty.

    You, on the other hand, do not appear to object to having your liberty interfered with by a armed agent of the state if it were to occur.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

    Politicians are the tyrants 3000 miles away; thug cops are 3000 tyrants 1 mile away. (Adapted from Benjamin Martin, fictional character extraordinaire)

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    For educational purposes I wouldn't mine seeing a video of you refusing to give your ID to a LEO when OCing, and then showing how the encounter ended on a positive note where you furthered the OCing image.





    Also brilliant post Skidmark. Very good.
    Every state is different but for ohio the law says. I found this posed on here by another Ohio member.

    Bottom line: you are not required, by Hiibel or by the ORC to supply any identifying information unless certain circumstances apply.
    ORC 2921.29 says:
    (A) No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the personís name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:

    (1) The person is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a criminal offense. (sounds like the requirements for a legal Terry stop, eh?)
    (2) The person witnessed any of the following:
    (a) An offense of violence that would constitute a felony under the laws of this state;
    (b) A felony offense that causes or results in, or creates a substantial risk of, serious physical harm to another person or to property;
    (c) Any attempt or conspiracy to commit, or complicity in committing, any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section;
    (d) Any conduct reasonably indicating that any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section or any attempt, conspiracy, or complicity described in division (A)(2)(c) of this section has been, is being, or is about to be committed

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.29



    cop} "May/Can I see some ID"?

    me} "May/Can I hear some RAS"? then I shut up, if he persists in demanding ID without stating RAS my next statement will be "You have just opened the door to a Chapter 42 US Code 1983 Civil Rights Law Suit, am I free to go"?


    "Am I free to leave? No? I have nothing further to say without my attorney present."
    Myself personally I will refuse to give any ID if I am walking freely around and he has no RAS. I will be 100% respectful to the officer but I refuse to follow the excuse to play along if you have nothing to hide when they ask me to show them my papers. Same thing if they want to illegally search my car I will always say no. I always get are you hiding something you don't want me to find and my reply is simply no, I just don't like to give up my rights willy nilly because society expects me to.
    Usually this pisses of the officer and he calls the for a k9 unit, I make it known that when the dog does not find anything and if he scratches my paint I will be sending the department the bill. That has worked once to have the officer cancel the k9 call because the officer just wanted me gone and it only proves the officer had no reason to suspect I was doing anything illegal. AS to the original question, how I act when I carry and how I act when I don't carry are not different besides the fact that I don't have my firearm on me, and that's not very often. I will always make an officer work when they attempt to violate my rights and so should you, don't bend over for society s sake of play alone to get along.
    Last edited by zack991; 06-13-2012 at 07:51 AM.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

  4. #29
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    So what, did you have bad experiences with LEOs on the past? Is that why all are bad guys or "thugs" to you now? I Those people that don't like what we do, don't like it due mostly to their own ignorance.

    Remember, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
    I have had hundreds of LEO contacts. I have had only ONE negative experience. Yes, this did color my perception and when I see a LEO approach my general direction I am now uncomfortable. "Is he going to harass me?? Am I going to get shot this time??" And on part two Just because I can do something (not illegal) and I do it, does not give you(LEO) permission to roust me because you have a personal problem with it. I do not want anyone putting me in harms way (drawing a bloody weapon) because HE has an authority problem.

    To the OP, my conduct is the same, armed or unarmed. The weapon is an additional tool.
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Washi...66874943419858

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  5. #30
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    Myself personally I will refuse to give any ID if I am walking freely around and he has no RAS. I will be 100% respectful to the officer but I refuse to follow the excuse to play along if you have nothing to hide when they ask me to show them my papers. Same thing if they want to illegally search my car I will always say no. I always get are you hiding something you don't want me to find and my reply is simply no, I just don't like to give up my rights willy nilly because society expects me to. Usually this pisses of the officer and he calls the for a k9 unit, I make it known that when the dog does not find anything and if he scratches my paint I will be sending the department the bill. That has worked once to have the officer cancel the k9 call because the officer just wanted me gone and it only proves the officer had no reason to suspect I was doing anything illegal. AS to the original question, how I act when I carry and how I act when I don't carry are not different besides the fact that I don't have my firearm on me, and that's not very often. I will always make an officer work when they attempt to violate my rights and so should you, don't bend over for society s sake of play alone to get along.
    You are being nice, sarcastic but nice. emphasis added to bring out what I am referring to. I have no problem asking them what their PC or RAS is and if they have none, telling them that I do not appreciate being harassed, will not consent to unlawful searches of myself or my property and that I view their delaying me without PC or RAS as being little more than harassment. I am as polite as I can be while saying it, recognizing their status as Officer, Deputy etc.. but I make sure that I get my point across.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I will not Support WAC H&K USP .40

  6. #31
    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Obviously.

    Permit me to assist you. "Those two incidents were the exception regarding the LEOs on my little town's force."
    You hold the same definition of casual as does LE. In my view, unless invited by me, any contact by a LEO while he is on the clock is not a casual encounter. It is a official investigation by that LEO.

    Cop: "How ya doing? Nice day, could we chat privately for a moment? I really dislike this part of my job, but we got a report of a fella who is reported to have a gun. I support your right to carry but we gotta check these things out. I hope you understand that I'm just doing my job. I'm really sorry about this....ya got any ID?" "Also, do you mind if I hold your pistol? For your safety and mine of course."

    If I have not violated the law that LEO is interfering with my liberty.

    You, on the other hand, do not appear to object to having your liberty interfered with by a armed agent of the state if it were to occur.
    Pretty sure I've made it abundantly clear that I never give up my ID or my sidearm. And did I not say that I keep it SHORT and polite. The best example I can give as you went about like this

    LEO: Hi, how's it going? We got a report of someone with a gun.
    Me: (smile) Yup, probably me. Are you detaining me?
    LEO: Well no...
    Me: Ok, have a great day.

    And then you just keep walking. Don't give them the opportunity to collect themselves or get aggressive.

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  7. #32
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    Pretty sure I've made it abundantly clear that I never give up my ID or my sidearm. And did I not say that I keep it SHORT and polite. The best example I can give as you went about like this

    LEO: Hi, how's it going? We got a report of someone with a gun.
    Me: (smile) Yup, probably me. Are you detaining me?
    LEO: Well no...
    Me: Ok, have a great day.

    And then you just keep walking. Don't give them the opportunity to collect themselves or get aggressive.

    Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2
    Have you thought that the only reason your encounter went so nicely in your neck of the woods is because of the more serious encounters LEO have had with prior OC'ers who stood their ground? (Mainsail, SV-Libertarian, DeanF and others in your area?)

    I have had many many LEO encounters too, many positive many negative. I have learned that you don't trust cops, they are always investigating you, anything you say can and will be used against you (not for you). Remember they are allowed to lie to you in the course of their investigation. I have seen casual encounters turn negative quickly. I have had a police officer Lieutenant Slodysko , not identify himself as an officer point his weapon at my head, talk about a fight or flight response that almost happened, ( I still think about what could have happened) I was arrested illegally twice that day, one for trying to file a complaint about the first instance. I have been followed, harassed, threatened, assaulted, arrested, detained, etc. Guess what I am still polite, I just don't play games with them and damn right I will try to video them when I can.

    I also have no problem with people who want to proactively police the police, why is it OK for the government street warriors to unconstitutionally proactively police us, but in turn it's somehow not good for citizens to do it back? I personally wish more people would keep cops on their toes.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    Just about exactly the same. That's because with the exception of being in uniform on Ft. Lewis, I'm always carrying. I choose to live my life by a set of standards so that I never need to second guess myself, and can feel good about myself when I go to bed at night. I choose to be what I like to call a "cheerful realist" I'm realistic in my expectations of this world we live in, but I choose to face the good and the bad with as positive an attitude as is possible. You would be shocked by how quickly this can mentally disarm the most aggressive of LEOs or antis.

    Just so you folks know, I haven't had an easy life. I've been through a lot that I wont go into on here. But I am being medically retired from the Army thanks to a few too many IEDs and I actually saw that as a damn good year. Try not to let life over-whelm you, because that's when it's start to pass you by. You can never get your spent time back, so why spend it angry?
    I am a supervisor for a technical support desk. It amazes me that so many people do not realize how much more effort EVERYTHING takes when you have a bad attitude. EVERYTHING in life is so much easier with a smile on your face, and friendly tone in your voice. If you come off as well meaning you get the best in people. If you share in the effort to correct a problem you gain allies.

    This transcends OC. This should be a goal for everyone. Treat everyone like a treasured grandparent, or a favorite friend and the world opens up to you. This does not mean to reveal information as if they were your friend. I treat everyone I do not know like one of my customers . . .give them nothing (outside of pleasantries) and they have nothing to hold against you.
    I have had many many LEO encounters too, many positive many negative. I have learned that you don't trust cops, they are always investigating you, anything you say can and will be used against you (not for you). Remember they are allowed to lie to you in the course of their investigation. I have seen casual encounters turn negative quickly. I have had a police officer Lieutenant Slodysko , not identify himself as an officer point his weapon at my head, talk about a fight or flight response that almost happened, ( I still think about what could have happened) I was arrested illegally twice that day, one for trying to file a complaint about the first instance. I have been followed, harassed, threatened, assaulted, arrested, detained, etc. Guess what I am still polite, I just don't play games with them and damn right I will try to video them when I can.
    I think once you realize they are actually and actively trying to do you harm by using the law, and its more vindictive than professional it changes the tenor of the situation. I think the only lesson to take away from the fact that this happens is to not judge every situation by the experiences of a prior situation. Police are human, some are good, some are clearly bad, otherwise do what you have to, when a public servant uses his authority to try to harm you, you have to do what you can to protect yourself.
    Last edited by Xulld; 06-14-2012 at 10:36 AM.

  9. #34
    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
    I am a supervisor for a technical support desk. It amazes me that so many people do not realize how much more effort EVERYTHING takes when you have a bad attitude. EVERYTHING in life is so much easier with a smile on your face, and friendly tone in your voice. If you come off as well meaning you get the best in people. If you share in the effort to correct a problem you gain allies.

    This transcends OC. This should be a goal for everyone. Treat everyone like a treasured grandparent, or a favorite friend and the world opens up to you. This does not mean to reveal information as if they were your friend. I treat everyone I do not know like one of my customers . . .give them nothing (outside of pleasantries) and they have nothing to hold against you.


    I think once you realize they are actually and actively trying to do you harm by using the law, and its more vindictive than professional it changes the tenor of the situation. I think the only lesson to take away from the fact that this happens is to not judge every situation by the experiences of a prior situation. Police are human, some are good, some are clearly bad, otherwise do what you have to, when a public servant uses his authority to try to harm you, you have to do what you can to protect yourself.
    +10
    Well said

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  10. #35
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
    I think once you realize they are actually and actively trying to do you harm by using the law, and its more vindictive than professional it changes the tenor of the situation. I think the only lesson to take away from the fact that this happens is to not judge every situation by the experiences of a prior situation. Police are human, some are good, some are clearly bad, otherwise do what you have to, when a public servant uses his authority to try to harm you, you have to do what you can to protect yourself.
    I agree, I don't judge each individual cop personally until they have proven themselves bad. But because of court precedent, public police opinion, and prior experience, I will not trust them, that's a safety measure we all should take against every public servant.

    I have had friendly conversations about the type of weapons we are carrying, about our day, about coffee with cops, but the second it goes to something personal,,,, sorry charlie....have a nice day and bye bye.

    I have also been in the mood not to have any interaction just like you would with anybody else, one officer walked up to me opened her little note pad, said 'hi' I said 'hi' and walked right past her and out the doors. Left her with a stunned look on her face. Nothing was meant personal toward her, I just didn't want to talk to a cop that day.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  11. #36
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I have also been in the mood not to have any interaction just like you would with anybody else, one officer walked up to me opened her little note pad, said 'hi' I said 'hi' and walked right past her and out the doors. Left her with a stunned look on her face. Nothing was meant personal toward her, I just didn't want to talk to a cop that day.
    Unless I initiated the conversation (making a report), as soon as any LEO breaks out a notepad and writing utensil, I find myself in defensive mode... not because I have done anything wrong, but because I have seen too many innocent people get railroaded and sent to jail simply based on the LEO's initial interview where supposedly that person was not a suspect and had not been Mirandized before the interview. So, even if you had been in a mood to talk that day.. probably best you didn't.

    What irks me recently is how many LEO's (supported by DA's) push for a response to their questions citing failure to do so can be considered as and charged as interference with an on-going investigation.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I will not Support WAC H&K USP .40

  12. #37
    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Re-direct

    OK, so we have figured out that starting civil and breaking off the "conversation" as quickly as possible is the right way to go and generally what most of us do when interacting with LEO.

    How about private citizens? They are a whole other ball of wax... With civilians I have had both great encounters and horrible(where I had to call the police) I personally like to talk to people, so if a conversation comes up about me carrying, I'll usually stop what I'm doing if I can and talk. How about you guys? Just sticking to private citizens now.

  13. #38
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I agree, but would recommend changing 'civil' to 'lawful'.

    If the other citizen is a fraidy cat butt-head anti....I don't even say good day. I frown, shake my head and walk away.

    I have had one citizen notice my pistola and asked a question about the holster and not the the pistola.

    Only cops notice me pistola is my experience in my little town. If my fellow citizens notice my pistola I don't typically notice their noticing.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

    Politicians are the tyrants 3000 miles away; thug cops are 3000 tyrants 1 mile away. (Adapted from Benjamin Martin, fictional character extraordinaire)

  14. #39
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    I consider "conversation" to be an activity in which 2, or more individuals voluntarily participate for the purpose of exchanging personal commentaries. Conversation can be concluded at any time by any participating party.

    "Interviews", "inquiries", and "interrogations" are non-conversant probings of a person's privacy and therefore constitute searches. Such searches are undertaken for the purpose of obtaining information upon which to reach a finding upon which to base award, or punishment. Probings are frequently undertaken under the guise of "conversation". If a person is not comfortable with the direction of any "conversation" they should immediately withdraw their participation.

    A rather "cut & dry" approach , and perhaps even a bit brusque in actual practice, but this philosophy has served me well for over 50 years. Tight lips do not sink ships - or the people aboard them.

  15. #40
    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    I consider "conversation" to be an activity in which 2, or more individuals voluntarily participate for the purpose of exchanging personal commentaries. Conversation can be concluded at any time by any participating party.

    "Interviews", "inquiries", and "interrogations" are non-conversant probings of a person's privacy and therefore constitute searches. Such searches are undertaken for the purpose of obtaining information upon which to reach a finding upon which to base award, or punishment. Probings are frequently undertaken under the guise of "conversation". If a person is not comfortable with the direction of any "conversation" they should immediately withdraw their participation.

    A rather "cut & dry" approach , and perhaps even a bit brusque in actual practice, but this philosophy has served me well for over 50 years. Tight lips do not sink ships - or the people aboard them.
    So then by your reasoning, every person that is curious about carrying and dares to ask you about it must be plotting to get you? See how that sounds more that a little odd. How about we just use some common sense? If someone (LEO or civilian) is being polite to you, why would you respond rudely? Don't you think that maybe if you act like an ass to people that's why they return the favor? You get what you give folks. Keep that in mind.

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  16. #41
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    OK, so we have figured out that starting civil and breaking off the "conversation" as quickly as possible is the right way to go and generally what most of us do when interacting with LEO.

    How about private citizens? They are a whole other ball of wax... With civilians I have had both great encounters and horrible(where I had to call the police) I personally like to talk to people, so if a conversation comes up about me carrying, I'll usually stop what I'm doing if I can and talk. How about you guys? Just sticking to private citizens now.
    I am pretty much the same way I found carrying has started many great conversations, many who consider themselves "anti" a few months ago I had a 40 min conversation with an "anti" at Starbucks, she said this would have happened if she didn't feel comfortable with me. I was able to ask her many questions from her viewpoint and counter many of her arguments with reason. (She was very anti-republican too, my ability not to be a fan of Republicans, helped too I think). At one time I felt like making a shirt that said "Go Ahead and Ask".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  17. #42
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    Unless I initiated the conversation (making a report), as soon as any LEO breaks out a notepad and writing utensil, I find myself in defensive mode... not because I have done anything wrong, but because I have seen too many innocent people get railroaded and sent to jail simply based on the LEO's initial interview where supposedly that person was not a suspect and had not been Mirandized before the interview. So, even if you had been in a mood to talk that day.. probably best you didn't.

    What irks me recently is how many LEO's (supported by DA's) push for a response to their questions citing failure to do so can be considered as and charged as interference with an on-going investigation.
    Yea it usually is best if you don't volunteer any info to cops.

    FIR's are also pushed by superiors. The whole system is corrupt. I believe proactive law enforcement from the government is unconstitutional.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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