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Thread: Oh Yes We Can! - VCDL Picnic 7/14/12 4PM-9PM - Green Hill Park Salem, VA

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Oh Yes We Can! - VCDL Picnic 7/14/12 4PM-9PM - Green Hill Park Salem, VA

    Oh Yes We Can! - VCDL Picnic 7/14/12 4PM-9PM - Green Hill Park Salem, VA
    Mark your calendars! VCDL is having an "Oh, yes we can!" picnic at a Roanoke County Park on Saturday, July 14th! Big turnout requested.

    HISTORY

    Roanoke has an ordinance on their books that is so poorly written as to be almost impossible to understand, but could easily be misconstrued to ban firearms in the County's parks:

    "15-8 (6) Hunting and firearms. ... No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute, or air rifles, spring guns, pellet guns, paintball guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other forms of weapons potentially dangerous to wildlife and to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind of trapping device ..."

    EM Ed Levine communicated on behalf of VCDL with the County to fix the wording, but the County Attorney dug in his heals claiming that the wording and intent was quite clear. Yep - clear as mud. The bottom line is that the County CANNOT prohibit otherwise lawful open or concealed carry in their parks.


    BIRTH OF A PICNIC

    What better way to get a clarification on that ordinance than for VCDL to hold a very large picnic in a Roanoke County park and let the police (and press) know we are doing so? The VCDL Board voted to hold and fund the picnic and you are invited! Thanks to Board member Al Steed Jr. for making the park arrangements.


    PICNIC DETAILS

    Where:

    Green Hill Park, Roanoke County
    2501 Parkside Drive
    Salem, VA 24153
    Shelter #2

    Directions/Map: http://tinyurl.com/6rgs56m

    When:

    4 PM to 9 PM, Saturday, July 14, 2012

    Please RSVP with number attending to Al Steed Jr. at: al@vcdl.org
    or on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/events/350142851720166/

    Food:

    VCDL will providing the food. However, if you wish to bring a covered dish to share, we would be happy to have it! Let Al know if you are bringing something so he can keep track of what foods will be available.

    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    Sounds good, I'll make sure we get down there for this and I'll see what I can do to round up some of the others from The Burg.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    VCDL Roanoke Picnic - Sat. July 14th

    "Oh, yes we can!" picnic at a Roanoke County Park on Saturday, July 14th!
    4:00 PM - 9:00 PM

    Let's do this!
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-12-2012 at 04:07 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Felix's Avatar
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    Probably don't need two sticky threads announcing the same picnic, Dale. Ed already started one some six hours earlier than yours.

    Should be a good one, gun rights activism at its best, an "in your face" picnic designed to test the county's contested ordinance. Guess there'll be a chance to explore what "expressly prohibited by statute" really means to the local cops and the on-duty county attorney if someone makes a CWG (Crowd with Guns) call. Actually, it appears the first test has already happened, the county Department of Parks issued Al a permit for VCDL to use Shelter #2 for the "Oh Yes We Can!" gathering. Since the usage permit application requires the organization to be listed along with a complete description of the event, they are already on notice
    Daily carry: SIG P229 .40 S&W

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix View Post
    Probably don't need two sticky threads announcing the same picnic, Dale. Ed already started one some six hours earlier than yours.
    Ooops - must have looked right at it too. Thanks - fixed that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    As if there was not already enough reason for this picnic -

    I just saw this

    http://www.roanokecountyva.gov/facil...23&Page=detail

    [QUOTE]
    7/24/2012
    2:00 PM
    Humans vs. Zombies! Glenvar
    SUMMER READING PROGRAM ACTIVITY: Come to Green Hill Park and play some Humans vs. Zombies. It's tag with a twist, and Nerf guns. Bring along your Reading Log for a stamp, and earn $10 of library money towards the auction.
    They'll spend taxpayer dollars to get kids to come and practice headshots, but get all knotted up about us walking around not bothering anybody and certainly not pointing guns at anyone, let alone actually shooting anyone.

    Roanoke County admits Zombies exist, sets up practice on how to defend yourself from Zombies, but will not allow you to carry a means of defense against Zombies. In the words of Private Cowboy (Full Metal Jacket for those of you who don't know):
    There's somethin' basically wrong with that.
    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    You all should stop in Lynchburg for an OC breakfast before heading out to Salem.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    You all should stop in Lynchburg for an OC breakfast before heading out to Salem.
    1 - the idea has been kicked around.

    2 - why aren't you grabbing the bull by the horns and announcing you have set one up? ("If you post it they will come" works almost every time.)

    3 - you do know how long it takes to drive from NoVa/Richmond/Hampton roads/Tidewater to Salem, don't you? Then factor in what time folks would need to leave in order to arrive in Lynchburg for breakfast. You could see if a local motel will give a group rate so folks can stay overnight - which also gives you the opportunity to "host" an OC dinner the night before the OC breakfast before the OC picnic. You could bill it as "The 24 Hours of OC".

    See what happens when you step up with an idea? You get the chance to head up carrying it out - it's an old VCDL tradition.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    1 - the idea has been kicked around.

    2 - why aren't you grabbing the bull by the horns and announcing you have set one up? ("If you post it they will come" works almost every time.)

    3 - you do know how long it takes to drive from NoVa/Richmond/Hampton roads/Tidewater to Salem, don't you? Then factor in what time folks would need to leave in order to arrive in Lynchburg for breakfast. You could see if a local motel will give a group rate so folks can stay overnight - which also gives you the opportunity to "host" an OC dinner the night before the OC breakfast before the OC picnic. You could bill it as "The 24 Hours of OC".

    See what happens when you step up with an idea? You get the chance to head up carrying it out - it's an old VCDL tradition.

    stay safe.
    1 ... been kicked around?

    2 ... sure thing, give me a day and I will

    3 ... a couple of hotels in the area offer decent rates for a nights sleep and if you all show up we can even do a dinner the night before as you say, I will check on a group rate which I hope implies that people will let me know as an idea how many and how much bargaining power I might have with a hotel in the area
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Responded to the wrong event and wrong time frame previously.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-27-2012 at 11:20 PM. Reason: Ooops
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    being close to the Roanoke area, i definitly will be there. we had a dinner in blacksburg last night. went very well. good fellowship

    i hope we get a huge turn out for this event. invite all your friends and even the anti's should come
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    I'm hardly able to make most events but this one sounds like something I can definitely make a point to attend.
    =============================
    NRA Certified Instructor & Range Safety Officer
    Teaching classes in Lorton VA & Springfield VA
    PM me if you need a class, RSO or safety briefing

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Roanoke News regarding our picnic...

    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    English Grammar 101 - subordinate clauses. Apparently this is not a prerequisite course for county attorneys.

    "as expressly prohibited by statute" is subordinate to and modifies "No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms".

    The word "as" in this case is not a preposition (pre-position), but rather a postposition modifying the complement "no person shall".

    Conclusion by grammatical rule: The ordinance is erroneously stated and therefore invalid. There is no confusion on that.

    The statute does not expressly allow the county to state "no person shall within a park, carry or possess firearms" even if they modify it after the fact. POF - they are forbidden to take any administrative action related to this. That would include posting signs that such was/is legal.

    The General Assembly's directive is clear - HANDS OFF. The county has chosen to ignore that, instead redirecting with the objection that they are saying the same thing - they are not.

    So is the county part of the problem or part of the solution?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I'm just curious, why are we playing picnic games with Roanoke County? The mere existence of the ordinance on their books violates 15.2-915, as there is no section in the Code of Virginia that expressly authorizes the statute that the County has written.

    This should be open and shut in front of a judge.

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I'm just curious, why are we playing picnic games with Roanoke County? The mere existence of the ordinance on their books violates 15.2-915, as there is no section in the Code of Virginia that expressly authorizes the statute that the County has written.

    This should be open and shut in front of a judge.

    TFred
    It has nothing to do with 15.2-915, according to Roanoke County.

    The County ordinance:
    15-8 (6) Hunting and firearms. ... No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute, or air rifles, spring guns, pellet guns, paintball guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other forms of weapons potentially dangerous to wildlife and to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind of trapping device ....
    They claim that the phrase
    as expressly prohibited by statute
    removes any conflict with 15.2-915 because 15.2-915 indicates they cannot prohibit firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof because of the passage of 15.2-915 but they can control all the other items and it was easier to just insert the five-word phrase than to delete the five word list that 15.2-915 prevents them from regulating.

    Seriously, asks Roanoke County, what's the difficulty in understanding that?

    Of course, nobody seems to care that
    or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges
    is also under the rubric of 15.2-915.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    [QUOTE=skidmark;1773519]I just saw this

    http://www.roanokecountyva.gov/facil...23&Page=detail

    [TABLE="class: ft_content"]
    [TR="class: ft_resultsalt"]
    [TD="class: ft_reserv"]7/24/2012
    2:00 PM[/TD]


    They'll spend taxpayer dollars to get kids to come and practice headshots, but get all knotted up about us walking around not bothering anybody and certainly not pointing guns at anyone, let alone actually shooting anyone.

    Roanoke County admits Zombies exist, sets up practice on how to defend yourself from Zombies, but will not allow you to carry a means of defense against Zombies. In the words of Private Cowboy (Full Metal Jacket for those of you who don't know):

    stay safe.
    That's awesome u know they are actually violating the regulations as well.
    "15-8 (6) Hunting and firearms. ... No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute, or air rifles, spring guns, pellet guns, paintball guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other forms of weapons potentially dangerous to wildlife and to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind of trapping device ..."

    Some Nerf guns are rifles and all Nerf guns are air powered so therefore Nerf rifles are air rifles and therefore "prohibited" in the park.

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    I took the liberty of letting them know about the "violation" that is the Humans vs. Zombies event and included my email below for your amusement.

    "Good Morning,

    I would like to inform you that your event "Humans vs. Zombies" at Green Hill Park is unlawful according to county ordnance.

    "15-8 (6) Hunting and firearms. ... No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute, or air rifles, spring guns, pellet guns, paintball guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other forms of weapons potentially dangerous to wildlife and to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind of trapping device ..."

    Some Nerf guns are rifles and all Nerf guns are air powered so therefore Nerf rifles are air rifles, in addition Nerf darts are not biodegradable and the wildlife or small children could potentially choke and die if they try to consume the darts therefore Nerf guns are "forms of weapons potentially dangerous to wildlife and to human safety" and therefore "prohibited" in the park.

    Thank you for your time"

    Hope some of you got a kick out of that.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It has nothing to do with 15.2-915, according to Roanoke County.
    Exactly. So I repeat my question, why are we playing these silly games and not filing a suit? I am fairly sure that a solicitation for funds would be quite quickly answered. ETA: And of course after the suit was won, we would hope the judge would make them pay the costs anyway. We sure have a lot of proof that Roanoke County knew what they were doing.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 07-14-2012 at 12:26 AM.

  20. #20
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    Well how did it go??

  21. #21
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    The wifester and I showed up a little late for the early festivities, but all seemed to be going smoothly when we arrived around 6 pm. We overshot the turnoff for the park and I noticed one Roanoke County Police vehicle up the road at a church, but otherwise noticed nothing at all regarding local law enforcement. Rain had started to fall moderately not long after we arrived so nearly everyone was tucked away under the shelter. All in all it seemed to be a successful outing, but I can defer to those who were there longer to establish a differing thought.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cch10000 View Post
    Well how did it go??
    Dan Casey & his son showed up. Folks made nice, as did he. There waas thunder and lightening, but it may have just been associated with the scattered showers encountered. Cooks and helpers doing their thing in a tropical monsoon downpour deserve a lot of admiration as well as thanks.

    I'm going to let others fill in the details, as I stayed on the sidelines and observed/listened.

    IIRC the RSVP count was 115 and I was told that the semi-official head count was 110.

    We watched the paintball zombie hunters come out of the woods drenched to the bone. Roanoke County PD had one "observer" who parked way across the ballfield from us. He would have needed some sort of optic to see anything.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Videos

    1. 40 seconds.. Why were we at the park: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwQtMvC2qAM

    2. 52 seconds Some B roll for news crew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dpESbdT6EE

    3. More B roll.. 1min 18 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZDcJyTjsQs

    4. Philip speaks to membership 14 mins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT8jdDQb-s8

    5. Philip answering questions from Roanoke TV7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL-l2n3qHTk


    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Singularly impressed with the response to this! Great picnic, conversation and food! The Salem/Roanoke people ROCK!

    Renewed many old friendships and made a ton of new ones. Was very pleased to see Dan Casey made the drive. By the way, I appreciate the public exposure he provides us via his day job - you can't buy that kind of advertising at better rates.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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