Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 62

Thread: Woman will be allowed to serve in combat roles now.......

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    1,558

    Woman will be allowed to serve in combat roles now.......

    The army and the marines are allowing women to serve in combat MOS's roughly by the end of next year. Anyone who is or was in military combat arms know that this is going to cause a very huge problems. They will have to attend "special training" and will not have to meet the same standards as men. Plans are still being worked on but know this, whose ever bright idea this is will only accomplish one thing. More men and women will die in combat because of this for starters.
    Last edited by zack991; 06-13-2012 at 07:32 AM.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

  2. #2
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Lenexa, Kansas
    Posts
    423
    I am all in for having women play in combat roles/MOS's. I personally don't see much of an issue in the matter, some women are better fit that some of the guys I met over the years from other branches of the service. I was Air Force, which they don't have much when it comes to a PT standard compared to the other branches. I say if the female can hang with the guys in the same combat role than I say let her play with the dogs! Other countries allow women to play in combat roles, so if its working for them then I don't see it being an issue for us. Now the whole standard issue conflict, yes I do agree if the women want to play combat with the big boys then I do agree they should hold the same standard that the guys have to obtain. I was never a fan of the "Modified Standards" for the women in the branch services. I do understand that us guys can take more of a beating per say, but if she wants to join a combat MOS I believe she needs to obtain the same standards as us guys been having to do. I may being selfish here, but I don't want someone who cant pull their own weight, or even help carrying a person over their shoulder if the time is needed. But since other countries have been allowing females in combat MOS's and its been working out excellent, I don't see the issue. Just as long as there is no "Special Standards" just because they're female.
    Nothing better than a Glock.........except maybe another Glock!

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    1,558
    The DOD has already stated that women will not have to meet males APFT standards to be in a combat mos. The average woman would not have the upper-body strength to drag a casualty off of a fire-swept, or any, field, or to pack an 80-pound backpack, throw a grenade beyond its blast range, fly an aircraft that has lost its hydraulics, or to lug around a high-pressure fire hose on a Navy ship. Just imagine, as Col. David Hackworth put it, if the reconnaissance plane that the Red Chinese pilot severely damaged and forced to land had been piloted by female rather than male pilots. It would never have made it. As it was, it was tough enough with two linebacker-like males piloting the lurching plane, let alone anyone weaker.

    Moreover, women are more easily injured than are men. For example, women who participate in sports such as basketball, volleyball and soccer, where their knees must suffer repeated impacts and pivoting, are 8 times more likely to rupture a knee-ligament than are men. The researchers attributed this much higher incidence of injury to the fact that women have weaker muscle structure (even after training) in this critical area. In combat, this area is equally stressed by the jumping, running, and other physical activities that combat requires of soldiers. No army can afford to have soldiers who are injured at eight times the normal rate.

    Uninformed feminist proponents of women in the military invariably point to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) as a model example of women in uniform who are equal to men. Alas, however, such is not the case at all. If anything, Israeli women are less equal than American women when it comes to the armed forces. Israeli women train separately from men with women drill instructors and, once they graduate from training camp, they serve in a separate division called CHEN, far from the front lines.

    For instance, if a 33-year-old male were to do 43 push-ups, 55 sit-ups, and run two miles in 15:18 for his Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT), he would earn a score of 224 points (out of a total of 300). This would be considered average at best. Yet if a 33-year-old female did the exact same, she would score a 272 and be considered in vastly better shape than the male.

    We can further contrast this discrepancy of standards by comparing how a 21-year-old male and a 21-year-old female would score using the same outcome (43 push-ups, 55 sit-ups, and a 15:18 2-mile run). The 21-year-old male would receive a score of 192 (and would just barely pass his APFT) while the 21-year-old female would receive ascore of 263 and might be highly commended.
    Last edited by zack991; 06-13-2012 at 11:22 AM.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

  4. #4
    Regular Member porterhouse83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Wheat Ridge Colorado
    Posts
    145

    Smile

    Ok I can give a good perspective. My girlfriend was a division 1 softball player. Her strength and fitness outweighs many men I know. She can flat knock a full grown man out! Her legs are strong enough to pull me while trying resist. I am 6'3 220lbs. This is just from her conditioning for a sport. Any woman training for combat will do well in combat. Oh and woman can flat out shoot from what I have seen. The one issue I see is many sexual assault charges being filed and a lot of men getting hit with dishonorable discharges.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    I think it is strange that so far nobody has discussed the reason why this issue has reared its ugly head in DOD once again.

    There are a significantly greater number of female 0-6s eligible for consideration of recommendation to the Senate for approval of their first star. Although discrimination based on sex is still not illegal within the DOD, it is going to be a growing issue when 0-6s with more time in service, more time in grade, and more experience in everything except combat and command of combat elements are left at the gate. It has not yet been hashed out if some/any of the provisions of Equal Opportunity Employment might apply to DOD in this situation, and it is not only possible but probable that all promotions from 0-6 to G-1 will be held up until the matter is resolved. Personally, I think that neither SCOTUS or the Obama DOJ want to be on the same continent as this issue, let alone get close enough to poke/beat it with a stick of any length.

    In case anybody has not noticed, DOD is downsizing once again. Middle managment will be where the cuts will hit hardest even if there are more cuts numerically in the lower enlisted and officer ranks. But before middle management is slashed DOD will want to promote as many "outstanding" and "qualified" service members as possible. They learned to do that after the downsizing following the Vietnam experience and how leaving Generals who fought the most recent war with tatics from the war before that caused problems. Now that it looks like we will not even become involved in large-scale counter-insurgency (what some xalled Vietnam) it is even more imperative that the upper ranks be staffed by folks who have the best chance of not losing the next war because of outdated/outmoded notions.

    And nobody is going to get promoted until this complaint about a glass ceiling for females is settled.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    I don't see a problem .. likely will increase suicide rate on opposing troops. We are used to the whiny american girl ... others are not.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    America
    Posts
    2,226
    Quote Originally Posted by DWCook View Post
    I am all in for having women play in combat roles/MOS's. I personally don't see much of an issue in the matter, some women are better fit that some of the guys I met over the years from other branches of the service. I was Air Force, which they don't have much when it comes to a PT standard compared to the other branches. I say if the female can hang with the guys in the same combat role than I say let her play with the dogs! Other countries allow women to play in combat roles, so if its working for them then I don't see it being an issue for us. Now the whole standard issue conflict, yes I do agree if the women want to play combat with the big boys then I do agree they should hold the same standard that the guys have to obtain. I was never a fan of the "Modified Standards" for the women in the branch services. I do understand that us guys can take more of a beating per say, but if she wants to join a combat MOS I believe she needs to obtain the same standards as us guys been having to do. I may being selfish here, but I don't want someone who cant pull their own weight, or even help carrying a person over their shoulder if the time is needed. But since other countries have been allowing females in combat MOS's and its been working out excellent, I don't see the issue. Just as long as there is no "Special Standards" just because they're female.
    "fitness" doesn't matter. Men are expendable, women are not; its a matter of biology.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    926
    I thin the females should pass the same tests as men to serve in combat roles.
    If that is done, than I see no problem so long as the men behave themselves and dont act like animals around them.

    I have a very close friend "Sarah" who saw combat while she served in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF).

    Here's a pic:
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    why?
    Posts
    432

    The Invisible War (IMDb)

    "An investigative documentary about the epidemic of rape of soldiers within the US military."

    ; http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2120152/,,, Please watch the Trailer to get the full impact pertaining to this discussion.

    "The film consists of interviews of victims of sexual assault with cases going back to the 1960's up to the present day. The victims (both male and female) relate the horror inflicted upon them Ė not just by their perpetrators, but by a military justice system that fails them."

    There is a lot I would like to say concerning this issue ( specifically women even being in the military ) but I'll start with one of the major problems which has not been readily discussed,,, until now,,,

    peace&rkba4ever

  10. #10
    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    309
    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    fly an aircraft that has lost its hydraulics,
    This is 100% incorrect. A cute little female A10 pilot did land the damaged beast with ZERO hydraulics after kicking ass! She also landed the aircraft in one piece on runway. ONLY ONE MALE HAS EVER DONE THAT! Don't sell our ladies short. I would rather have a redneck country girl watching my back than some of these big city "men" growing up nowadays.

    http://www.americanvalor.net/heroes/332

    Campbell’s skill and courage earned her a Distinguished Flying Cross.
    Last edited by Mas49.56; 06-14-2012 at 12:32 AM. Reason: Add info

  11. #11
    Regular Member porterhouse83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Wheat Ridge Colorado
    Posts
    145
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    This is 100% incorrect. A cute little female A10 pilot did land the damaged beast with ZERO hydraulics after kicking ass! She also landed the aircraft in one piece on runway. ONLY ONE MALE HAS EVER DONE THAT! Don't sell our ladies short. I would rather have a redneck country girl watching my back than some of these big city "men" growing up nowadays.

    http://www.americanvalor.net/heroes/332

    Campbellís skill and courage earned her a Distinguished Flying Cross.
    That's what's up!

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    1,558
    What I think would be the most difficult issue to overcome would be the logistics of having women in combat areas right alongside men. Living with women would mean that we would need separate bathing and lavatory facilities, as well as sleeping areas. In the larger bases, such as company and battalion operation bases, this could be supported without too much trouble. In the smaller ones however, which make up the vast majority of where the infantry lives, it would be nearly impossible. When I was in Afghanistan( and I am currently on a second tour there), I lived in and operated out of around a half dozen patrol bases throughout my entire tour. Two of the patrol bases I lived in were no bigger than a modest living room, with no separated living areas. They were just a big square area with a dirt wall barrier that we would sleep in and launch patrols out of. We would live there for weeks at a time. Integrating women into that environment would be a disaster. We rarely had the opportunity to shower, and when we did we didn't have the luxury of privacy.

    Another problem would be the simple act of urinating. On any given day, especially during the summer months, we would drink water almost constantly to stay hydrated. Predictably, we peed a lot. If we were on patrol, we'd simply go where we were and then continue on. Women do not quite have that luxury. If a woman were to randomly pop a squat in the middle of a village, especially in a Muslim country, problems would arise. Halting an entire patrol and finding a private enough spot every time a woman had to relieve herself seems trivial, but it would cause nothing but problems, especially in an area infested by IEDs. It jeopardizes the entire patrol, both in mission and safety. The list of hygiene and daily living problems is nearly endless, and would take an extreme undertaking to correct. We would almost need to change the entire way we operate, which would take even more time to learn.

    I am very surprised this hasn’t been brought up. Yet no one in the DOD is willing to answer. Anyone who has deployed in a combat MOS knows how remote many infantry bases are and in many cases hygiene amenity are near to none in the majority of places. They may get better over time after the unit has been able to get them built up; women are required by regulation as the same as cooks to be able to get a shower to deal with Hygiene issues that infantry simple do not have to worry about as much. On average before we had running water in a few of our COPs in Afghanistan we had to go three to four weeks rotation to simply get relieved to get a shower. We smelled horrible and it is no fun or a good feeling in having to wear sweating nasty cloths until we could get the chance to get our cloths washed. Women cannot go this long at all, the risk of infection is obviously a major factor. Cleanliness requirements for females differ from those of males. Want to see what I am referring to, watch a movie called RESTREPO that is how the majority of Infantry combat units live daily in Afghanistan. Simple women do not belong period in the infantry, being on a FET team does not even come close to being or dealing with the same conditions as the Infantry
    Last edited by zack991; 06-19-2012 at 03:57 PM.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

  13. #13
    Regular Member porterhouse83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Wheat Ridge Colorado
    Posts
    145
    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    What I think would be the most difficult issue to overcome would be the logistics of having women in combat areas right alongside men. Living with women would mean that we would need separate bathing and lavatory facilities, as well as sleeping areas. In the larger bases, such as company and battalion operation bases, this could be supported without too much trouble. In the smaller ones however, which make up the vast majority of where the infantry lives, it would be nearly impossible. When I was in Afghanistan, I lived in and operated out of around a half dozen patrol bases throughout my entire tour. Two of the patrol bases I lived in were no bigger than a modest living room, with no separated living areas. They were just a big square area with a dirt wall barrier that we would sleep in and launch patrols out of. We would live there for weeks at a time. Integrating women into that environment would be a disaster. We rarely had the opportunity to shower, and when we did we didn't have the luxury of privacy.

    Another problem would be the simple act of urinating. On any given day, especially during the summer months, we would drink water almost constantly to stay hydrated. Predictably, we peed a lot. If we were on patrol, we'd simply go where we were and then continue on. Women do not quite have that luxury. If a woman were to randomly pop a squat in the middle of a village, especially in a Muslim country, problems would arise. Halting an entire patrol and finding a private enough spot every time a woman had to relieve herself seems trivial, but it would cause nothing but problems, especially in an area infested by IEDs. It jeopardizes the entire patrol, both in mission and safety. The list of hygiene and daily living problems is nearly endless, and would take an extreme undertaking to correct. We would almost need to change the entire way we operate, which would take even more time to learn.

    I am very surprised this hasnít been brought up. Yet no one in the DOD is willing to answer. Anyone who has deployed in a combat MOS knows how remote many infantry bases are and in many cases hygiene amenity are near to none in the majority of places. They may get better over time after the unit has been able to get them built up; women are required by regulation as the same as cooks to be able to get a shower to deal with Hygiene issues that infantry simple do not have to worry about as much. On average before we had running water in a few of our COPs in Afghanistan we had to go three to four weeks rotation to simply get relieved to get a shower. We smelled horrible and it is no fun or a good feeling in having to wear sweating nasty cloths until we could get the chance to get our cloths washed. Women cannot go this long at all, the risk of infection is obviously a major factor. Cleanliness requirements for females differ from those of males. Want to see what I am referring to, watch a movie called RESTREPO that is how the majority of Infantry combat units live daily in Afghanistan. Simple women do not belong period in the infantry, being on a FET team does not even come close to being or dealing with the same conditions as the Infantry
    Very good points. I did not consider that. My guess is that Woman will not be in those remote areas though. Their roles I bet will be closer to the main HQ.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    104

    One reason I have not seen raised

    Most men, especially those in an all volunteer military, are very protective of women, no matter how much they say otherwise. This will cause problems in a combat situation because those same men would likely go out of their way to protect the women in the area. Not in and of itself a bad thing but definitely a hazard in combat. Perhaps using the Israeli model would alleviate this, I don't know.

  15. #15
    Regular Member lysander6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    What I think would be the most difficult issue to overcome would be the logistics of having women in combat areas right alongside men. Living with women would mean that we would need separate bathing and lavatory facilities, as well as sleeping areas. In the larger bases, such as company and battalion operation bases, this could be supported without too much trouble. In the smaller ones however, which make up the vast majority of where the infantry lives, it would be nearly impossible. When I was in Afghanistan, I lived in and operated out of around a half dozen patrol bases throughout my entire tour. Two of the patrol bases I lived in were no bigger than a modest living room, with no separated living areas. They were just a big square area with a dirt wall barrier that we would sleep in and launch patrols out of. We would live there for weeks at a time. Integrating women into that environment would be a disaster. We rarely had the opportunity to shower, and when we did we didn't have the luxury of privacy.

    Another problem would be the simple act of urinating. On any given day, especially during the summer months, we would drink water almost constantly to stay hydrated. Predictably, we peed a lot. If we were on patrol, we'd simply go where we were and then continue on. Women do not quite have that luxury. If a woman were to randomly pop a squat in the middle of a village, especially in a Muslim country, problems would arise. Halting an entire patrol and finding a private enough spot every time a woman had to relieve herself seems trivial, but it would cause nothing but problems, especially in an area infested by IEDs. It jeopardizes the entire patrol, both in mission and safety. The list of hygiene and daily living problems is nearly endless, and would take an extreme undertaking to correct. We would almost need to change the entire way we operate, which would take even more time to learn.

    I am very surprised this hasnít been brought up. Yet no one in the DOD is willing to answer. Anyone who has deployed in a combat MOS knows how remote many infantry bases are and in many cases hygiene amenity are near to none in the majority of places. They may get better over time after the unit has been able to get them built up; women are required by regulation as the same as cooks to be able to get a shower to deal with Hygiene issues that infantry simple do not have to worry about as much. On average before we had running water in a few of our COPs in Afghanistan we had to go three to four weeks rotation to simply get relieved to get a shower. We smelled horrible and it is no fun or a good feeling in having to wear sweating nasty cloths until we could get the chance to get our cloths washed. Women cannot go this long at all, the risk of infection is obviously a major factor. Cleanliness requirements for females differ from those of males. Want to see what I am referring to, watch a movie called RESTREPO that is how the majority of Infantry combat units live daily in Afghanistan. Simple women do not belong period in the infantry, being on a FET team does not even come close to being or dealing with the same conditions as the Infantry
    +1 to everything Zack has said. He is spot-on. There is also the genetic wiring most men have when it comes to responding to women in peril or injured. We run to them and not to the guns. It will have to be trained out of us. Altogethr a bad idea.
    Gun Control is Mind Control.

    My Blog: http://zerogov.com/

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Chesterfield
    Posts
    340
    I am with Zach here. It is just bad planning and bad logistics to have women in combat situations. Additionally let's consider the worst case scenario a man and a woman are captured while in combat.....we all know what is going to happen to her. Now what is a result of that happening repeatedly over a prolonged period of time......children. Now we have a female pow pregnant and possibly giving birth to her captors child. Do we really want to go there as a society? Now the man is held for the same amount of time and is rescued after a while....he will likely be damaged some, but not nearly like the woman. Just not smart.
    Last edited by MamabearCali; 06-14-2012 at 03:50 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Miss Black Rifle Disease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Ronaoke, VA
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    This is 100% incorrect. A cute little female A10 pilot did land the damaged beast with ZERO hydraulics after kicking ass! She also landed the aircraft in one piece on runway. ONLY ONE MALE HAS EVER DONE THAT! Don't sell our ladies short. I would rather have a redneck country girl watching my back than some of these big city "men" growing up nowadays.

    http://www.americanvalor.net/heroes/332

    Campbell’s skill and courage earned her a Distinguished Flying Cross.
    ^^ This! I have over 4000 hours logged and have been at the controls of a transport category aircraft with a total loss of hydraulics and had no trouble handling it all the way down to the runway as well as dealing with an Alternate gear Extension procedure on top of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    What I think would be the most difficult issue to overcome would be the logistics of having women in combat areas right alongside men. Living with women would mean that we would need separate bathing and lavatory facilities, as well as sleeping areas. In the larger bases, such as company and battalion operation bases, this could be supported without too much trouble. In the smaller ones however, which make up the vast majority of where the infantry lives, it would be nearly impossible. When I was in Afghanistan, I lived in and operated out of around a half dozen patrol bases throughout my entire tour. Two of the patrol bases I lived in were no bigger than a modest living room, with no separated living areas. They were just a big square area with a dirt wall barrier that we would sleep in and launch patrols out of. We would live there for weeks at a time. Integrating women into that environment would be a disaster. We rarely had the opportunity to shower, and when we did we didn't have the luxury of privacy.

    Another problem would be the simple act of urinating. On any given day, especially during the summer months, we would drink water almost constantly to stay hydrated. Predictably, we peed a lot. If we were on patrol, we'd simply go where we were and then continue on. Women do not quite have that luxury. If a woman were to randomly pop a squat in the middle of a village, especially in a Muslim country, problems would arise. Halting an entire patrol and finding a private enough spot every time a woman had to relieve herself seems trivial, but it would cause nothing but problems, especially in an area infested by IEDs. It jeopardizes the entire patrol, both in mission and safety. The list of hygiene and daily living problems is nearly endless, and would take an extreme undertaking to correct. We would almost need to change the entire way we operate, which would take even more time to learn.

    I am very surprised this hasn’t been brought up. Yet no one in the DOD is willing to answer. Anyone who has deployed in a combat MOS knows how remote many infantry bases are and in many cases hygiene amenity are near to none in the majority of places. They may get better over time after the unit has been able to get them built up; women are required by regulation as the same as cooks to be able to get a shower to deal with Hygiene issues that infantry simple do not have to worry about as much. On average before we had running water in a few of our COPs in Afghanistan we had to go three to four weeks rotation to simply get relieved to get a shower. We smelled horrible and it is no fun or a good feeling in having to wear sweating nasty cloths until we could get the chance to get our cloths washed. Women cannot go this long at all, the risk of infection is obviously a major factor. Cleanliness requirements for females differ from those of males. Want to see what I am referring to, watch a movie called RESTREPO that is how the majority of Infantry combat units live daily in Afghanistan. Simple women do not belong period in the infantry, being on a FET team does not even come close to being or dealing with the same conditions as the Infantry
    The hygiene argument is just not true, especially concerning the squat in the field. I would have no qualms whatsoever to drop my pants, squat and pee in full view of my fellow soldiers. To say that women require completely private and sanitary facilities to poo and pee is ridiculous. You make us out to be some fragile little frail nothings not worthy of tough conditions. Granted, the average woman can't handle it. But that's what training is for. Weed em out in combat training and problem solved. This isn't an issue of what women can or can't do so let's not make it such. It's an issue of male sensibility and not being accustomed to something new. People don't like change, even when change is long overdue. Every point made there is resolvable with very simple solutions and practices. It's not implementation that's the challenge, its the will. And then consider this? What about all female units? Go there and the points above fall apart even more. I hear that "men will fall apart over seeing a dead female soldier on the battlefront" nonsense all the time. And it's pure fiction every time I hear it. None of the tough ass Marines I knew or Navy Seals I hung out with would be so fickle. These guys are tougher than that. If a man feels this way then perhaps its that individual that should not be in combat vs barring an entire gender from serving thier country in combat.

    All that being said. I 100% agree that females in combat role should have to meet the same physical standards as men, anything less is ludicous. If you can't drag your buddy behind cover after he got hit then what good are you, stick with technical MOS's. If you want to work out, strength train and prove you can handle yourself then it's a non issue.
    Last edited by Miss Black Rifle Disease; 06-14-2012 at 05:10 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Chesterfield
    Posts
    340
    MissBlackRifle, the problem with squatting to pee (which is really not a problem because their are peeing aids that facilitate a woman standing to pee) is not your fellow soldiers, but rather the villagers you will be serving around. Hard enough for them to accept a woman soldier but to see her backside, well that could quite literally cause a riot.

    You say that hygene is not a problem. Ok fine, but what is your solution to women having their monthly cycle in the midst of combat. Forgive me for being blunt, but tampons only last up to eight hours before there is a risk of TSS. Pads last even less time. So in a combat situation how is this to be accomplished? I am told that intense combat situations can last far longer than eight hours. There is no time to excuse yourself for a moment wash the lead and dirt off your fingers and get yourself situated.

    Again I ask what about the kidnapped woman soldier who is raped repeatedly and impregnated. How capable would that soldier be to assist in her rescue, not to mention the child that is now within her. It is possible for this to happen right now, but putting women in combat roles will make it all the more likely.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Miss Black Rifle Disease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Ronaoke, VA
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by MamabearCali View Post
    MissBlackRifle, the problem with squatting to pee (which is really not a problem because their are peeing aids that facilitate a woman standing to pee) is not your fellow soldiers, but rather the villagers you will be serving around. Hard enough for them to accept a woman soldier but to see her backside, well that could quite literally cause a riot.

    You say that hygene is not a problem. Ok fine, but what is your solution to women having their monthly cycle in the midst of combat. Forgive me for being blunt, but tampons only last up to eight hours before there is a risk of TSS. Pads last even less time. So in a combat situation how is this to be accomplished? I am told that intense combat situations can last far longer than eight hours. There is no time to excuse yourself for a moment wash the lead and dirt off your fingers and get yourself situated.

    Again I ask what about the kidnapped woman soldier who is raped repeatedly and impregnated. How capable would that soldier be to assist in her rescue, not to mention the child that is now within her. It is possible for this to happen right now, but putting women in combat roles will make it all the more likely.
    LOL, sorry, but really? You can't slide a new maxipad down your pants without dropping trouser? I can do that or even switch out a tampon in like 20 seconds. Now I'll admit it's a challenge if you don't want to get blood on your $25 Victoria Secret panties, but if I'm in combat blood stains on underwear aren't really gonna matter now are they? It's just not that hard chika. And not even men whip out their equipment or drop trousers and defaecate in plain sight of villagers. They duck behind a shed, boulder, vehicle etc...Your marginalizing something because I suspect, it's something you yourself would never want to do or could never fathom doing so every other woman should not be allowed to do it. I've been in male dominated professions my whole life including the military. I cannot tell you how sick to death I am of this mentality. It really pains me to hear this coming from another woman in the 21st century. Don't blanket those of us who are able to keep up with men with discriminatory thinking because you either can't or choose not to. BTW, I've been in combat. It's just not this complicated. It's made out to be this way by men who are terrified of women being on equal footing. My husband thinks you guys are silly and he's former Marine Recon. To be fair, he also thinks I'm an idiot to get lulled into this discussion at all. I'm starting to agree.

    Combat is terrifying in an exhilarating sort of way. It's not what you might expect it to be. It's much worse. But I never once curled up into a fetal position and started to cry. I did my job, kept my calm and got through it. The men fighting around me didn't neglect their duty to take extra measure to protect me. They treated me like a solider, nothing more, nothing less. In fact they expected me to pick up a rifle and start fighting like I had a pair and that is exactly what I did. It was completely professional on every level. If I was young enough to go back in I'd sign up tomorrow.

    The whole prisoner argument is absolute hogwash. So what, you get to make that decision for me? I'm not allowed to decide if being in combat is worth such risks? That's a personal decision madam, it's not one that should be made for me based on nothing more than my gender. It blows my mind that on a site that promotes rights and freedoms to see such levels of discriminatory ignorance.

    I apologize for being so harsh sister but this stuff makes my blood boil.
    Last edited by Miss Black Rifle Disease; 06-14-2012 at 07:23 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Rarely on OCDO have a seen such a pile of sexist BS as has been dumped here.
    Quote Originally Posted by zack991
    Living with women would mean that we would need separate bathing and lavatory facilities, as well as sleeping areas.
    For the first 2, a sign could be put on the door when the women were using them. Or just get used to having someone in the next stall (shower or toilet) who doesn't look like you.
    For sleeping, as long as the men behaved civilly (no rape) & everyone at least wore underwear (women add a T-shirt), what's the problem?

    We rarely had the opportunity to shower, and when we did we didn't have the luxury of privacy.
    You've never been to a naturist resort, have you?

    Another problem would be the simple act of urinating.
    When your male friends peed, did you watch them, or did you turn away & watch for threats?
    And there are any number of devices to allow women the trick of peeing standing up, or with removing minimal clothing.
    There's the GoGirl,
    the Whiz Freedom,
    the SheWee,
    the P-mate (not as good an idea in these conditions, as they're single use),
    and I'm sure there are many more.
    Have a plastic bag to carry it, rinse as possible.

    If a woman were to randomly pop a squat in the middle of a village, especially in a Muslim country, problems would arise.
    Same for men. It's rude & unsanitary for anyone.

    On average before we had running water in a few of our COPs in Afghanistan we had to go three to four weeks rotation to simply get relieved to get a shower. We smelled horrible and it is no fun or a good feeling in having to wear sweating nasty cloths until we could get the chance to get our cloths washed. Women cannot go this long at all, the risk of infection is obviously a major factor.
    Really? I thought that it was wiping the wrong way that led to UTIs. Guess my nursing instructors were wrong.

    As for being grungy for long periods of time, I think it's equally icky for everyone. People who aren't suited for front-line work would take other combat positions. Not everything classified as "combat" is actually at the pointy end, facing enemies across the field, dodging bullets and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by MamabearCali
    worst case scenario a man and a woman are captured while in combat... we all know what is going to happen to her... Now the man is held for the same amount of time and is rescued after a while....he will likely be damaged some, but not nearly like the woman.
    Men can be raped too. And the anal tearing is worse than vaginal, since it's not designed to stretch.
    I think the insult to self-concept would be similar, or perhaps worse for men.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 06-14-2012 at 07:18 PM.

  21. #21
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Uggh. I learned CHT systems a long time ago. I wonder what changes will be made to submarine CHT to accommodate stuff that Ain't Been Chewed?

    The worst trip ever was coming home from a 'special operation' for being depth limited by ABC stuck in a sanitary hull valve.

  22. #22
    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    128
    What follows are the relevant portions of various posts by men who are in the military and have been deployed as combat troops in war zones.

    The posts are not pretty and they're not PC. They are complete with spelling errors. Please don't bother to correct them; these guys are not on this board. Bold characters are my emphasis.

    On PT:

    The only real thing I don't like about it is taking the physical fitness stuff "gender-neutral" which simply means pussifying it so anyone can pass. ******* passing was already possible for any sickbay commando you could point at outside the BAS. I ******* passed with a high second class when my back was so ****** up I couldn't stand upright (3 mile run was a ************). No, if they can pass a male PFT and that new combat FT then they meet "minimum" requirements, maybe hump a full ruck in the hills of Commiefornia along with everyone else (standard 10% fallout rate), drink like a fish, **** like a rabbit, fight like a rabid wolf - we could talk.



    On killing and fitness:


    I have met a couple women that could pass USMC Scout/Sniper school. They could pass the course, they could carry the weight, One that may even be able to shoot a kid putting an IED on the side of the road. But they are rare. Very rare

    now on top of the physical issues, the protection issues, the ******* issues, I could go on.... What is going to happen is that they are going to want women to pass certain courses, and they are GOING to pass them. people are going to want to see them succeed, they are going to be pushed through. Then more women and the standards are going to get lower, and lower, and lower. Because it will go from :we need to meet and beat the standards of our male counterparts" to "they need to have female standards for the same position"

    Just like they have now, for everything. Pull ups? NOPE Dead hangs, 18min 3 mile for perfect score? NOPE 21mins this is what will happen

    I am sure your co worker is badass, being a cop, and a swat cop is a hard, and respected position. It takes a lot of work and is very dangerous. But it is not combat infantry, I am sorry but they are not comparable. Many a cop, could not be infantry and many a Infantryman could not be a cop. They share a coupe similarities, but the differences are many and vast.

    As a cop when was the last time you carried 70 pounds of equipment for 25 kilometers, then dug in a fighting position and stayed in a hole for at least 2 weeks? doesn't that sound easy?

    How about a 150lbs women dragging my 220lb ass out of a building where I just took 4 rounds to my torso

    How about James Gularte who lost every one of his spotters, in combat. Who fireman carried for over a 1000 meters, his last spotter, to the evac chopper to see him die anyways. How many women do you know could do that?

    How about a 6 man Marine Force Recon team doing deep R&S, inside Iraq, for 13 days, nothing but whats in there pack. Exercising good discipline, and being passively compromised. Then moving 20 kilometers to an extract point only to be told to move again, then again, then again. 32 days total nothing but what they had, always moving through the Iraq desert. Who would be the weak link?

    Oh it sounds like a good idea, until you they are beside you. I would of enjoyed a little toy to rail while I was in Iraq the first time.....until those artillery rounds hit. And her ass had to carry me down 6 flights of stairs and 5 kilometers to the CAT team waiting to pick us up
    It really annoys me when i see ************* say "Well there's girls out there that can!"

    Before i get into why THEY specifically shouldn't be allowed into the infantry, let's cut it like this: There are physiological differences between men and women. Trying to ignore them is seriously some millennial ********. (I hate my ******* generation.) Men have dicks; women, vaginas. It's a motherfucking fact. Then you get into the actual muscular-skeletal differences, and what is possible for the majority of men is actually IMPOSSIBLE for the majority of women.

    You want to know what the Infantry does? We ******* hump. We hump here. We hump over there. We ******* hump up mountains, through deserts, and in the god damned woods. We NEVER do this with light loads. Your average Grunt is going to weigh 160+, with some dudes falling in the 140-160 range, but i've never seen an infantryman under 145. Now, a guy that weighs 160 pounds who's in pretty good shape athletically won't find it EASY to hump 10-20 miles with 70-100 pounds of stupid **** on his body, but it's doable. THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR 100-140 # GIRLS.

    You know what ISN'T used as a metric for physical fitness? Humping. Additionally, the humps you do in ITB/SOI (Infantry school.) are BITCHMADE.

    Now you see this ********* "gender-neutral physical standard" stuff coming down from higher. Guess what's NOT ******* gender-neutral, airwinger Commandant? Fitness. Neither are ******* bullets and IEDs.

    True story, we had females embedded with my company my last deployment. A so-called "Female engagement team." (What purpose they were serving, i haven't the slightest clue. Women in tribal Afghanistan are as much property to the men as goats are, so i don't really understand why they need to be "engaged", nor do i see how it positively affects our mission.) These ARE the women who've passed "more rigorous physical standards", etc. And they STILL couldn't go further than 2 miles without jeopardizing the patrol, losing discipline, and falling the **** out.

    Now, onto the VERY few women who CAN pass brass and put men into their places: It's not worth completely ******* up a social dynamic that has worked for literally THOUSANDS of years simply because a very, very, very limited number of women can out PT men. I don't buy into the emotional argument that much, but it DOES exist, and any time you introduce women into an all-male environment **** WILL hit the fan. You know what problems we don't have in the infantry? Pregnancies. Sexual harassment. Jealousy. And all the other **** those things that those things intermingling entail. I'm not blaming the women for this (I saw this **** happening at the COC where our FET team was located in country.), in fact, i actually blame the dudes for going gaga over a bunch of thrashed ***** while there's very very bad men running around who want to take their lives. But it's a fact of life that CANNOT be ignored.

    If they cannot carry a full load of gear 20 miles in a day, setup and then fight, then they have no business soldiering.

    Any person who falls out of a patrol due to exhaustion has jeopardized the lives of everyone on that patrol.

    This entire idea makes no sense when put into those terms.
    Last edited by tomrkba; 06-14-2012 at 08:25 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Miss Black Rifle Disease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Ronaoke, VA
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post

    If they cannot carry a full load of gear 20 miles in a day, setup and then fight, then they have no business soldiering.

    Any person who falls out of a patrol due to exhaustion has jeopardized the lives of everyone on that patrol.

    This entire idea makes no sense when put into those terms.
    You had me until your last sentence. Not true at all. Excuses are excuses. I agree, there are not many women suited physically or psychologically for combat. Those that are, are indeed a rare exception. But because such women are not numerous this justifies barring the ones that can keep up with men in every aspect from combat? BS! There are men that have no business being in combat as well. Just because the average vs. exception is reversed with women then this justifies combat role discrimination? A lot of what was posted above smelled of inflated sexist ego vs. any real rationale argument.
    Last edited by Miss Black Rifle Disease; 06-14-2012 at 08:38 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    309
    A young Russian lady named Lyudmila Pavlichenko fought in heavy combat against the Nazis. She had 309 confirmed kills! All American reporters had to say was to make fun of her skirt length.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Miss Black Rifle Disease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Ronaoke, VA
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    A young Russian lady named Lyudmila Pavlichenko fought in heavy combat against the Nazis. She had 309 confirmed kills! All American reporters had to say was to make fun of her skirt length.
    Among many others. Israel, France, Germany, New Zealand, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Serbia, Sweden and Switzerland all allow women in front line potions. Where is the breakdown of discipline?

    And this from one of the posts above "Now, onto the VERY few women who CAN pass brass and put men into their places: It's not worth completely ******* up a social dynamic that has worked for literally THOUSANDS of years simply because a very, very, very limited number of women can out PT men".

    Thousands of years? Wow...just wow. Women have been in combat as long as the human race has existed. And there are endless examples of them not only being in combat, but being among the most notable warriors in history. The truly asinine aspect to this is that there are now and have been women serving on the combat lines in US Forces since we invaded A-Stan. Now instead of them being there due to dumb luck proximity of their "non-combat unit" it will be official.

    Get over it guys, as much as it pains some of you you're just going to have to accept that there are some women that can look you square in the eye as an equal without exception. A real man can accept this without it threatening him.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •