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Woman will be allowed to serve in combat roles now.......

H

Herr Heckler Koch

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Uggh. I learned CHT systems a long time ago. I wonder what changes will be made to submarine CHT to accommodate stuff that Ain't Been Chewed?

The worst trip ever was coming home from a 'special operation' for being depth limited by ABC stuck in a sanitary hull valve.
 
tomrkba

tomrkba

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What follows are the relevant portions of various posts by men who are in the military and have been deployed as combat troops in war zones.

The posts are not pretty and they're not PC. They are complete with spelling errors. Please don't bother to correct them; these guys are not on this board. Bold characters are my emphasis.

On PT:

The only real thing I don't like about it is taking the physical fitness stuff "gender-neutral" which simply means pussifying it so anyone can pass. ******* passing was already possible for any sickbay commando you could point at outside the BAS. I ******* passed with a high second class when my back was so ****** up I couldn't stand upright (3 mile run was a ************). No, if they can pass a male PFT and that new combat FT then they meet "minimum" requirements, maybe hump a full ruck in the hills of Commiefornia along with everyone else (standard 10% fallout rate), drink like a fish, **** like a rabbit, fight like a rabid wolf - we could talk.
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On killing and fitness:

I have met a couple women that could pass USMC Scout/Sniper school. They could pass the course, they could carry the weight, One that may even be able to shoot a kid putting an IED on the side of the road. But they are rare. Very rare

now on top of the physical issues, the protection issues, the ******* issues, I could go on.... What is going to happen is that they are going to want women to pass certain courses, and they are GOING to pass them. people are going to want to see them succeed, they are going to be pushed through. Then more women and the standards are going to get lower, and lower, and lower. Because it will go from :we need to meet and beat the standards of our male counterparts" to "they need to have female standards for the same position"

Just like they have now, for everything. Pull ups? NOPE Dead hangs, 18min 3 mile for perfect score? NOPE 21mins this is what will happen

I am sure your co worker is badass, being a cop, and a swat cop is a hard, and respected position. It takes a lot of work and is very dangerous. But it is not combat infantry, I am sorry but they are not comparable. Many a cop, could not be infantry and many a Infantryman could not be a cop. They share a coupe similarities, but the differences are many and vast.

As a cop when was the last time you carried 70 pounds of equipment for 25 kilometers, then dug in a fighting position and stayed in a hole for at least 2 weeks? doesn't that sound easy?

How about a 150lbs women dragging my 220lb ass out of a building where I just took 4 rounds to my torso

How about James Gularte who lost every one of his spotters, in combat. Who fireman carried for over a 1000 meters, his last spotter, to the evac chopper to see him die anyways. How many women do you know could do that?

How about a 6 man Marine Force Recon team doing deep R&S, inside Iraq, for 13 days, nothing but whats in there pack. Exercising good discipline, and being passively compromised. Then moving 20 kilometers to an extract point only to be told to move again, then again, then again. 32 days total nothing but what they had, always moving through the Iraq desert. Who would be the weak link?

Oh it sounds like a good idea, until you they are beside you. I would of enjoyed a little toy to rail while I was in Iraq the first time.....until those artillery rounds hit. And her ass had to carry me down 6 flights of stairs and 5 kilometers to the CAT team waiting to pick us up
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It really annoys me when i see ************* say "Well there's girls out there that can!"

Before i get into why THEY specifically shouldn't be allowed into the infantry, let's cut it like this: There are physiological differences between men and women. Trying to ignore them is seriously some millennial ********. (I hate my ******* generation.) Men have dicks; women, vaginas. It's a motherfucking fact. Then you get into the actual muscular-skeletal differences, and what is possible for the majority of men is actually IMPOSSIBLE for the majority of women.

You want to know what the Infantry does? We ******* hump. We hump here. We hump over there. We ******* hump up mountains, through deserts, and in the god damned woods. We NEVER do this with light loads. Your average Grunt is going to weigh 160+, with some dudes falling in the 140-160 range, but i've never seen an infantryman under 145. Now, a guy that weighs 160 pounds who's in pretty good shape athletically won't find it EASY to hump 10-20 miles with 70-100 pounds of stupid **** on his body, but it's doable. THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR 100-140 # GIRLS.

You know what ISN'T used as a metric for physical fitness? Humping. Additionally, the humps you do in ITB/SOI (Infantry school.) are BITCHMADE.

Now you see this ********* "gender-neutral physical standard" stuff coming down from higher. Guess what's NOT ******* gender-neutral, airwinger Commandant? Fitness. Neither are ******* bullets and IEDs.

True story, we had females embedded with my company my last deployment. A so-called "Female engagement team." (What purpose they were serving, i haven't the slightest clue. Women in tribal Afghanistan are as much property to the men as goats are, so i don't really understand why they need to be "engaged", nor do i see how it positively affects our mission.) These ARE the women who've passed "more rigorous physical standards", etc. And they STILL couldn't go further than 2 miles without jeopardizing the patrol, losing discipline, and falling the **** out.

Now, onto the VERY few women who CAN pass brass and put men into their places: It's not worth completely ******* up a social dynamic that has worked for literally THOUSANDS of years simply because a very, very, very limited number of women can out PT men. I don't buy into the emotional argument that much, but it DOES exist, and any time you introduce women into an all-male environment **** WILL hit the fan. You know what problems we don't have in the infantry? Pregnancies. Sexual harassment. Jealousy. And all the other **** those things that those things intermingling entail. I'm not blaming the women for this (I saw this **** happening at the COC where our FET team was located in country.), in fact, i actually blame the dudes for going gaga over a bunch of thrashed ***** while there's very very bad men running around who want to take their lives. But it's a fact of life that CANNOT be ignored.
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If they cannot carry a full load of gear 20 miles in a day, setup and then fight, then they have no business soldiering.

Any person who falls out of a patrol due to exhaustion has jeopardized the lives of everyone on that patrol.

This entire idea makes no sense when put into those terms.
 
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Miss Black Rifle Disease

Miss Black Rifle Disease

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tomrkba said:
If they cannot carry a full load of gear 20 miles in a day, setup and then fight, then they have no business soldiering.

Any person who falls out of a patrol due to exhaustion has jeopardized the lives of everyone on that patrol.

This entire idea makes no sense when put into those terms.
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You had me until your last sentence. Not true at all. Excuses are excuses. I agree, there are not many women suited physically or psychologically for combat. Those that are, are indeed a rare exception. But because such women are not numerous this justifies barring the ones that can keep up with men in every aspect from combat? BS! There are men that have no business being in combat as well. Just because the average vs. exception is reversed with women then this justifies combat role discrimination? A lot of what was posted above smelled of inflated sexist ego vs. any real rationale argument.
 
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Mas49.56

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A young Russian lady named Lyudmila Pavlichenko fought in heavy combat against the Nazis. She had 309 confirmed kills! All American reporters had to say was to make fun of her skirt length.
 
Miss Black Rifle Disease

Miss Black Rifle Disease

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Mas49.56 said:
A young Russian lady named Lyudmila Pavlichenko fought in heavy combat against the Nazis. She had 309 confirmed kills! All American reporters had to say was to make fun of her skirt length.
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Among many others. Israel, France, Germany, New Zealand, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Serbia, Sweden and Switzerland all allow women in front line potions. Where is the breakdown of discipline?

And this from one of the posts above "Now, onto the VERY few women who CAN pass brass and put men into their places: It's not worth completely ******* up a social dynamic that has worked for literally THOUSANDS of years simply because a very, very, very limited number of women can out PT men".

Thousands of years? Wow...just wow. Women have been in combat as long as the human race has existed. And there are endless examples of them not only being in combat, but being among the most notable warriors in history. The truly asinine aspect to this is that there are now and have been women serving on the combat lines in US Forces since we invaded A-Stan. Now instead of them being there due to dumb luck proximity of their "non-combat unit" it will be official.

Get over it guys, as much as it pains some of you you're just going to have to accept that there are some women that can look you square in the eye as an equal without exception. A real man can accept this without it threatening him.
 
M

MamabearCali

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Miss Black Rifle Disease said:
LOL, sorry, but really? You can't slide a new maxipad down your pants without dropping trouser? I can do that or even switch out a tampon in like 20 seconds. Now I'll admit it's a challenge if you don't want to get blood on your $25 Victoria Secret panties, but if I'm in combat blood stains on underwear aren't really gonna matter now are they? It's just not that hard chika. And not even men whip out their equipment or drop trousers and defaecate in plain sight of villagers. They duck behind a shed, boulder, vehicle etc...Your marginalizing something because I suspect, it's something you yourself would never want to do or could never fathom doing so every other woman should not be allowed to do it. I've been in male dominated professions my whole life including the military. I cannot tell you how sick to death I am of this mentality. It really pains me to hear this coming from another woman in the 21st century. Don't blanket those of us who are able to keep up with men with discriminatory thinking because you either can't or choose not to. BTW, I've been in combat. It's just not this complicated. It's made out to be this way by men who are terrified of women being on equal footing. My husband thinks you guys are silly and he's former Marine Recon. To be fair, he also thinks I'm an idiot to get lulled into this discussion at all. I'm starting to agree.

Combat is terrifying in an exhilarating sort of way. It's not what you might expect it to be. It's much worse. But I never once curled up into a fetal position and started to cry. I did my job, kept my calm and got through it. The men fighting around me didn't neglect their duty to take extra measure to protect me. They treated me like a solider, nothing more, nothing less. In fact they expected me to pick up a rifle and start fighting like I had a pair and that is exactly what I did. It was completely professional on every level. If I was young enough to go back in I'd sign up tomorrow.

The whole prisoner argument is absolute hogwash. So what, you get to make that decision for me? I'm not allowed to decide if being in combat is worth such risks? That's a personal decision madam, it's not one that should be made for me based on nothing more than my gender. It blows my mind that on a site that promotes rights and freedoms to see such levels of discriminatory ignorance.

I apologize for being so harsh sister but this stuff makes my blood boil.
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This about more than just you. This is about more than the maybe 5% at most of women soldiers that can handle the bodily work that would be required in combat. I am sorry if I upset you. You may have been a-ok in combat. You may be GI Jane, I don't know. But when a woman gets captured in combat and is beaten up it effects the nation very differently than when a man gets beaten up. How do I know this....two words Jessica Lynch. Fair or not, parochial or not, it is the truth. It is also the truth that men and women are made differently, one is not better than the other but in general men are significantly stronger and more capable of handling physical hardships. Women in general are better at relationships. That is not parochial or ingnorant it is just fact.

As for this being a personal decision...respectfully....no it is not. Those on the front lines defend my freedom and yours. It is the militaries responsibility to see that there is no weakness there, that only those most capable of handling it are there. The front lines is not the time or the place for feminist agendas. In general I would bet that there are few women that can toss up a super heavy pack and go in for 40 miles. You make light of the issue of a menstrual cycle and maybe you never had any trouble--good--but many women have recurrent infections with unsanitary conditions (no one cares about underwear). I deserve, you deserve, my children deserve to have soldiers in combat that are not sick.


This is not about rights and freedom. When a person signs on the dotted lines for the military they set aside many of their "rights and freedoms". Those who enlist know this. This is about preserving rights and freedoms by not having a potential liability on the combat field.
 
Miss Black Rifle Disease

Miss Black Rifle Disease

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MamabearCali said:
This about more than just you. This is about more than the maybe 5% at most of women soldiers that can handle the bodily work that would be required in combat. I am sorry if I upset you. You may have been a-ok in combat. You may be GI Jane, I don't know. But when a woman gets captured in combat and is beaten up it effects the nation very differently than when a man gets beaten up. How do I know this....two words Jessica Lynch. Fair or not, parochial or not, it is the truth. It is also the truth that men and women are made differently, one is not better than the other but in general men are significantly stronger and more capable of handling physical hardships. Women in general are better at relationships. That is not parochial or ingnorant it is just fact.

As for this being a personal decision...respectfully....no it is not. Those on the front lines defend my freedom and yours. It is the militaries responsibility to see that there is no weakness there, that only those most capable of handling it are there. The front lines is not the time or the place for feminist agendas. In general I would bet that there are few women that can toss up a super heavy pack and go in for 40 miles. You make light of the issue of a menstrual cycle and maybe you never had any trouble--good--but many women have recurrent infections with unsanitary conditions (no one cares about underwear). I deserve, you deserve, my children deserve to have soldiers in combat that are not sick.


This is not about rights and freedom. When a person signs on the dotted lines for the military they set aside many of their "rights and freedoms". Those who enlist know this. This is about preserving rights and freedoms by not having a potential liability on the combat field.
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No disrespect to you personally, just your opinion on this. Absolute garbage! Effect a nation differently? How exactly? Why would the effect be relevant toward the issue at hand even if you could actually cite any weighted precedent? if anything it would empower and unify a nation more, not harm such unity. I never understood that argument. The sanitary issue is complete and total fantasy. According to this logic how did us lowly women ever manage to survive primitive times before soap and hot showers? There are ways to deal with this issue in the field that are simple and easy to manage. No, this is sexist garbage period. Some part of you, probably tucked away in your sub-conscience mind is threatened by women who can stand on equal footing whether you want to admit it or not. That's all this issue has ever been or ever will be. 10 years from now when the military hasn't fallen apart you'll remember the day you were on the ignorant side of history.
 
M

MamabearCali

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There is a reason why there are no women in the NFL, no women boxing men, no women beating the men it for the gold in downhill, no women competing with men in track and field. It is just a fact that men are bigger, stronger, and faster. I want our most elite fighters out there on the front line. When the fit hits the shan, I don't want the mission to fail because they woman couldn't carry the 225lb mans body who had been shot up and over the wall to saftey.



As John Q Adams once said "facts are stubborn things"
 
porterhouse83

porterhouse83

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MamabearCali said:
There is a reason why there are no women in the NFL, no women boxing men, no women beating the men it for the gold in downhill, no women competing with men in track and field. It is just a fact that men are bigger, stronger, and faster. I want our most elite fighters out there on the front line. When the fit hits the shan, I don't want the mission to fail because they woman couldn't carry the 225lb mans body who had been shot up and over the wall to saftey.



As John Q Adams once said "facts are stubborn things"
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Are you serious? My GF can put me on her shoulder and walk with me. Again I'm 6'3 220. Your comment is full of discrepancies. Woman can train hard and get very strong.
 
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scott58dh

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First black female POW sets the record straight

snip of MamabearCali post,,,
"But when a woman gets captured in combat and is beaten up it effects the nation very differently than when a man gets beaten up. How do I know this....two words Jessica Lynch." .

& Shoshana Johnson !

& Lori Piestewa.

:arrow:; Shoshana Johnson Story = http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/35196...female-pow-sets-record-straight/#.T9rANa6veRI ,,,,THINK ABOUT IT ! Is this what should be the standard for the women of USA now ?

"When Jessica Lynch, who was badly injured in the attack, was rescued nearly two weeks before everyone else, the Army sold her as a John Wayne-type hero who had gone down with her guns blazing. The story captured the country’s imagination, and the fascination continued when it was revealed that the Army’s original story was a total fabrication. Lynch, like Johnson, did not have a working weapon and surrendered without firing a shot." MNBC

Eleven members of the unit were killed, and seven, including Johnson and Jessica Lynch, were captured.

Killed in action, Private First Class Lori Piestewa :arrow:;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Piestewa , 23, of Tuba City, Arizona, The first Native American woman in history to die in combat while serving with the U.S. military. She was posthumously awarded a Purple Heart and a Prisoner of War Medal.

"A video of some of the American prisoners of war, including Piestewa (filmed shortly before she died in an Iraqi hospital), was later shown around the world on Al Jazeera television."

American P.O.W.s in 2003 Invasion of Iraq
507th Maintenance Company Prisoners of war,
The following 507th soldiers were captured and held as prisoners of war (POWs):

Specialist Edgar Hernandez, 21, Mission, Texas. (Bronze Star Medal, Purple Heart, Prisoner of War Medal)
Specialist Joseph Hudson, 23, Alamogordo, New Mexico. (Bronze Star Medal, Purple Heart, Prisoner of War Medal)
Specialist Shoshana Johnson, 30, El Paso, Texas. (Bronze Star Medal, Purple Heart, Prisoner of War Medal)
Private First Class Jessica Lynch, 19, of Palestine, West Virginia. (Bronze Star Medal, Purple Heart, Prisoner of War Medal)
Private First Class Patrick Miller, 23, Wichita, Kansas. (Silver Star, Purple Heart, Prisoner of War Medal)
Sergeant James Riley, 31, Pennsauken, New Jersey. (Bronze Star Medal, Purple Heart, Prisoner of War Medal)

It's amazing what the internet has for info sometimes, just takes a few keyboard clicks and,,,,, POW !,,,,,there it is in all its glory.

peace&rkba4ever! :cool:
 
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M

MamabearCali

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PHP:
porterhouse83 said:
Are you serious? My GF can put me on her shoulder and walk with me. Again I'm 6'3 220. Your comment is full of discrepancies. Woman can train hard and get very strong.
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Sure they can become very strong in comparison to other women. But once again you won't find a single woman linebacker in the NFL, they just can't get as strong as men. The silver bullet in women's sports is a semi-pro womens baseball team. They are arguably the best women's baseball team in the world, yet when they play 40 year old has beens, they very often lose. You can fit a square peg into a round hole if push hard enough, but that does not mean that is where it belongs.
 
OC for ME

OC for ME

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Women in combat....if they wanna go, let them go.

If they can't do the job once there drop-kick their butts back to a desk job. If a dude can't cut it drop-kick his butt back to a desk job. If a chick gets a buddy killed/injured because they can't cut it, no big deal, dudes let their buddies get killed/injured cuz they couldn't cut it either.

Dudes letting/getting their buddies get killed/injured has been happening for thousands of years....nothing new there.

Being a useless FLOB POS is gender neutral.

The one thing just about everybody overlooks regarding this issue is the trust factor. When I was riding fast boats up under the ice and a dude did not or could not do his job we had ways of helping him to decide to transfer off the ship when we got back to port. If you can do the job more power to you. Once you have proven you can't or won't do the job life 'on-board' gets tough and stays tough. No do-overs, no second chance, once you are 'out' you stay 'out'. I did not have time to work with useless FLOB POSs to help them 'turn their life around'.

I have on more than one occasion phoned a buddy on a different boat about what to expect from the 'new guy' they will be getting....a real POS, watch your back....the 'staying on the out' part. Now, just imagine the useless FLOB POS got a buddy killed or injured cuz they are a useless FLOB POS....and you better believ that that news did not stay a secret.

Typical phone call:

Me: "Jimmy, good to talk man."
Jimmy: "You too....what's up?"
Me: "Heads up, we got a POS coming your way."
Jimmy: "Who?"
Me: "Petty Officer (or Officer, Chief, Non-rate) Such-and-such."
Jimmy: "Anything in particular?"
Me: "Yeah, FLOB POS....watch your back dude....look, gotta go, catch ya later."
Jimmy: "Thanks, dude, for the heads up....see ya for a beer when ya get back in."
Me: "Later man."

'Watch your back', as used by me, indicated that you were not only a useless FLOB POS but a potential danger to the ship and crew. If I did not include 'watch your back' you were just a useless FLOB POS and fairly harmless.

Captain and Commander, watch it and pay particular attention to the trials and tribulations of one of the midshipmen....eerily familiar except for the midshipman's final scene.
 
porterhouse83

porterhouse83

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MamabearCali said:
PHP:

Sure they can become very strong in comparison to other women. But once again you won't find a single woman linebacker in the NFL, they just can't get as strong as men. The silver bullet in women's sports is a semi-pro womens baseball team. They are arguably the best women's baseball team in the world, yet when they play 40 year old has beens, they very often lose. You can fit a square peg into a round hole if push hard enough, but that does not mean that is where it belongs.
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Wow! I have nothing else to say.
 
OC for ME

OC for ME

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porterhouse83 said:
Let it be known that male soldiers screw things up badly also.. Remember Pat Tillmam? NFL star who while in action was killed by friendly fire. Just sayin.
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I do not consider a 'friendly fire' incident such as the Tillman incident in the same catagory as the dude or dudette screwing the pooch in the foxhole next to you and you getting your ass shot off because your 'buddy' could not do their job.
 
porterhouse83

porterhouse83

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OC for ME said:
I do not consider a 'friendly fire' incident such as the Tillman incident in the same catagory as the dude or dudette screwing the pooch in the foxhole next to you and you getting your ass shot off because your 'buddy' could not do their job.
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Do not want to get in to a debate but a screw up is a screw up. My friends and family who served have the same thing they tell people. A mistake no matter who makes it is still a mistake and you cant get any deader than dead. Makes perfect sense to me.
 
OC for ME

OC for ME

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porterhouse83 said:
Do not want to get in to a debate but a screw up is a screw up. My friends and family who served have the same thing they tell people. A mistake no matter who makes it is still a mistake and you cant get any deader than dead. Makes perfect sense to me.
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OK, no debate.....not all screw-ups are created equal....at least when I was in riding fast boats anyway.
 
B

BOOMcat12B

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OK I reckon I will put my 2 cents in on this topic though I doubt it amounts to that much....

I was a Combat Engineer in Iraq assigned to a PSD team. I was literally all over MND-N and spent more time outside the wire than in. Allot of times we did not have the luxury of "home". Living outside or out of our vics, pulling patrols for days on end, eating nothing but 1 MRE per day. Basically it sucked. My team was all male, all 12Bs and we had all trained together before we deployed. We were as close as you can get and combat only forged that bond deeper. Now with all that said we did escort females and at times had a female attached to our team. I have seen those females that could hack it and those that could not. Some freaked out over the hygiene issues, others freaked out over contacts... I literally ordered a PVT to shut up a female NCO by any means necessary during a firefight one time simply because she would not quit getting hysterical over our internal comms. On the flip side I have seen females who handled contact just fine... Hell one of em got blown up and after we preformed our checks in the truck and got done assessing the situation she turned to us and proceeded to let out a string of obscenities that impressed everyone of us in the truck, then finished it off by asking if she could man the crew served (the gunner was knocked out for a few moments). She was not that phased and took it in stride is my point. Same with the hygiene issue. I can say the same about some of the "men" we escorted. Combat is nothing more than a mind set. You WILL be in the suck... It is the most miserable time of your life... And at times the best part of your life. Some PEOPLE have this mindset and some do not.

Personally if a female can pass the same tests at the same standards as a male, and have the right mindset then I see nothing wrong with a female being in a combat MOS. As far separate living quarters and latrines...That is utter BS as well. If they want to be in a combat MOS then they might as well forget about the privacy issue...Just like men do. If the females meet the same standard across the board then I will gladly accept her in a combat MOS. Sex has no bearing in combat... A bullet or IED will kill them just the same as they will a man.

The problem comes in the form of our current political atmosphere. The military is all politics and therefore they are going to try to change units to "accommodate" females... Sensitivity training is going to be a big issue. You simply do not try to tell men (and women once the tmie comes) who are trained to kill....and have killed that they are not allowed to blow off steam, or that they are not allowed to curse...or that they need to be politically correct. Those things do not belong in a combat MOS... It is hard to explain the dynamics of a combat unit... But these are some things that are going to be an issue. It already is an issue but it will get 10x worse once females are allowed into combat MOS...unless someone with common sense steps in
 
Jack House

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I didn't bother perusing the thread, rather I just skimmed it lightly. However, there were a few general positions I wanted to respond to.


Women shouldn't join the military/serve in combat roles because WOMEN!
A lot of people will say that the Israel Defense Force is the best military in the world, just about everyone agrees that it's one of the best. Women in combat roles works for them and has done so for at least the last two decades or so. Despite Israel constantly struggling to survive, the inclusion of women into their ranks has not caused them to lose the war. So why not allow women in combat roles in the U.S. armed forces?

Honestly though, if ever there was a strong argument for women not to be included in combat roles, it's this picture right here.
Eva2Y.png

No offense, ladies. :lol:

Women should be allowed to serve in combat roles because RIGHTS!
Nope, sorry. I agree with the others. This is far more than just about you, it is about the safety and security of our armed forces. And the armed forces is definitely not a place to go if you want all your rights intact.


HOWEVER, as I said earlier, while there are legitimate concerns about the inclusion of women in combat roles, other nations have already addressed and overcome these concerns. So there is really no reason to hold them back anymore.
 
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