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Thread: Should be required reading for all OC'ers out there....

  1. #1
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Should be required reading for all OC'ers out there....

    I've recently been in a rather heated discussion with some people about the Mythbuster's recent show about bringing a knife to a gun fight. I won't get into that, what I will do is mention that in my research I came upon several articles that you as a responsible gun owner, and more importantly carrier, should read. Not because it will make you safer. It will help you understand the law as regards to lethal force. Why? First a little background:

    This all came about because of the 21 foot rule. Police and self defense trainers often teach the Tueller drill. That's where the 21 foot rule came about. Once again, I'll spare you the background on that. Anyway, Dennis Tueller and Massad Ayoob published a whole slew of articles in the 80's and 90's that dealt specifically with the idea of legal use of lethal force. In those articles, Massad mentions that if the defendant in gun related trial has read these articles they can be used as evidence in court. But that if you have not read them, you cannot use them. They deal with the actual threat that exists and the knowledge that someone who is close (15-25 feet) can be a lethal threat. If you have that knowledge on hand prior to an assault and you have this knowledge based on published studies, you can use that study to prove that you felt threatened and defend your actions. IF you haven't read the study article, if cannot be used. Jusy FYI.

    Tueller, Dennis (March 1983), "How Close is Too Close?", S.W.A.T. Magazine
    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm

    Ayoob, Massad (October 1991), "Explaining the deadly force decision: the opportunity factor", Shooting Industry
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_11549909/

    The Massad article is part 5 of a 10 part series. It's well worth reading all 10 parts if you can.

  2. #2
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    I have 2 VHS tapes (need to transfer to DVD) just for that reason, what you know beforehand is admissible exculpatory evidence, but you have to be able to prove (tangible proof) you had the knowledge before an indecent (explained to me in depth by the local prosecutor in my home town while riding on patrol with a sheriffs deputy buddy) not just say "Oh yea I read an article about that once".

    I have "DEADLY EFFECTS; Wound Ballistics" with William Facler(?) head of the Army's Would Ballistics Laboratory; to explain (if needed) why the deceased has multiple bullet wounds. I also have a copy of a police training video "SURVIVING EDGED WEAPONS" don't have the specifics as it is a copy.

    I have them, I can prove I had the knowledge before an indecent and "should" be allowed to show to a jury should it go that far. You need to print those articles, put them in a safe deposit box if you have one (maybe even have notarized as to date) download to you computer and NEVER modify the original so the date stamp on the file does not change, make another copy to use to copy segments from or if you want to modify something (bold, hi-light etc).
    Last edited by F350; 06-13-2012 at 03:20 PM.

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I have 2 VHS tapes (need to transfer to DVD) just for that reason, what you know beforehand is admissible exculpatory evidence, but you have to be able to prove (tangible proof) you had the knowledge before an indecent (explained to me in depth by the local prosecutor in my home town while riding on patrol with a sheriffs deputy buddy) not just say "Oh yea I read and article about that once".

    I have "DEADLY EFFECTS; Wound Ballistics" with William Facler(?) head of the Army's Would Ballistics Laboratory; to explain (if needed) why the deceased has multiple bullet wounds. I also have a copy of a police training video "SURVIVING EDGED WEAPONS" don't have the specifics as it is a copy.

    I have them, I can prove I had the knowledge before an indecent and "should" be allowed to show to a jury should it go that far. You need to print those articles, put them in a safe deposit box if you have one (maybe even have notarized as to date) download to you computer and NEVER modify the original so the date stamp on the file does not change, make another copy to use to copy segments from or if you want to modify something (bold, hi-light etc).
    Excellent! Good advice! I will print them.

    Maybe this thread could serve as a compendium from the members of videos, articles, etc that would be good to gather in order to provide a solid defense.
    Last edited by mobiushky; 06-13-2012 at 02:38 PM.

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    Regular Member 1supra's Avatar
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    Great articles! Thank you! I agree that everyone that carries needs to read those and furthermore, go through some type of armed defence / pistol training, as well as regularly practice drills at home. I think most have and do this already, but good to keep in mind.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    I have practiced plenty with my sidearms and serpa holsters. I don't know about the Mythbusters, but I figure I'd have riddled an attacker with holes before they could close the distance to use a knife. Unless, of course, they threw it. Odds are, I could avoid it hitting me. Odds are also good they'd be unable to avoid getting hit.

    One thing that is readily obvious about the mythbusters... they don't spend much time practicing getting a handgun out of a holster.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    I have practiced plenty with my sidearms and serpa holsters. I don't know about the Mythbusters, but I figure I'd have riddled an attacker with holes before they could close the distance to use a knife. Unless, of course, they threw it. Odds are, I could avoid it hitting me. Odds are also good they'd be unable to avoid getting hit.

    One thing that is readily obvious about the mythbusters... they don't spend much time practicing getting a handgun out of a holster.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    We actually practice these drills on the range (I do a LOT of defensive shooting) and believe it or not, you've got about 1.3 - 1.6 seconds to present and fire ... My best 3 round from hands at side is 1.18 seconds - 3 rounds center mass. I am faster firing from close guard (firing from 3 of presentation) obviously, but thats pretty much reserved for when bad guy is within 6 feet.

    This was this evening at the range (via IPSC Shot timer)

    №1 Time-0.38 Split-0.0
    №2 Time-0.81 Split-0.44
    №3 Time-1.22 Split-0.41

    --Rob

    [Edit] Shot 1 is flash sight, 2 and 3 are aimed, in case you were wondering about the splits being so close on shot 1...
    Last edited by Bellum_Intus; 06-15-2012 at 03:40 AM.
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  7. #7
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    I have done this drill with hundreds of students

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    I have practiced plenty with my sidearms and serpa holsters. I don't know about the Mythbusters, but I figure I'd have riddled an attacker with holes before they could close the distance to use a knife. Unless, of course, they threw it. Odds are, I could avoid it hitting me. Odds are also good they'd be unable to avoid getting hit.

    One thing that is readily obvious about the mythbusters... they don't spend much time practicing getting a handgun out of a holster.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    The average time to close the distance from 21 feet is about 1.5 to 2 seconds. Even if you are able to draw and fire in 1.1 seconds (which is very fast) the person with the knife can be on you in the last half a second. Wounds to the torso often take several seconds to take effect. IF you are distracted for any reason, say to look at a vehicle approaching, or to glance to the side at another person, the person with the contact weapon is on you before you can draw.

    It is the old, but true issue that action beats reaction. If you wait for the person to start at you before you draw, you are likely to lose.

  8. #8
    Regular Member wmodavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post

    Ayoob, Massad (October 1991), "Explaining the deadly force decision: the opportunity factor", Shooting Industry
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_11549909/

    The Massad article is part 5 of a 10 part series. It's well worth reading all 10 parts if you can.
    Where are the rest of the 10 articles?

  9. #9
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    I'm sure in the absence of adequate representation by a qualified criminal defense attorney, the "21 foot rule" - generally recognized by all law enforcement agencies throughout the U.S. -could be suppressed by a trial judge, but such an action would likely result in the reversal of a conviction, and remand for retrial upon appeal.

    Trial court suppression of such a recognized and relevant consideration impacting the question of fact regarding justification for use of deadly force is suggestive of an attempt to "squeeze" a plea agreement out of a defendant - which is of course standard procedure within the criminal justice system in the U.S.

  10. #10
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    I know quite a few people who carry. Interestingly enough, most of them do not demonstrate adequate awareness/ attention to anything but their 5 - 6 foot immediate personal "space." I can come up on them from any side and startle them easily. Unfortunately, those who carry concealed are the easiest to surprise most of the time.

    Extend your personal space. Be aware of who and what is around you for at least that 20 feet, and look beyond that often. You will probably never need to draw at all.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  11. #11
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmodavis View Post
    Where are the rest of the 10 articles?
    Notice at the top of that page that is linked there is a progression of the tab your are on. looks like this:


    FindArticles / Sports / Shooting Industry / Oct, 1991

    Each of them are links. If you click on the "Shooting Industry" link you will be sent to a listing of several articles that start with the most current and stretch backwards. These articles were published in 1991, so scroll back till you get to the 1991 articles. Should look like this:

    Shooting Industry: Issues from 1992

    Dec 1, 1992Nov 1, 1992Oct 1, 1992Sep 1, 1992Aug 1, 1992Jul 1, 1992Jun 1, 1992May 1, 1992Apr 1, 1992Mar 1, 1992Feb 1, 1992Jan 1, 1992
    Shooting Industry: Issues from 1991

    Dec 1, 1991Nov 1, 1991Oct 1, 1991Sep 1, 1991Aug 1, 1991Jun 1, 1991May 1, 1991Apr 1, 1991Mar 1, 1991Feb 1, 1991Jan 1, 1991
    Shooting Industry: Issues from 1990

    Dec 1, 1990Nov 1, 1990Oct 1, 1990Sep 1, 1990Aug 1, 1990Jul 1, 1990Jun 1, 1990May 1, 1990Apr 1, 1990Mar 1, 1990Feb 1, 1990



    This is part 5, so it started in in May 1, 1991 and stretches to March 1, 1992. May is actually a precursor and June is part 1. July is obviously missing. Hope that helps.

  12. #12
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Since the 21-foot rule is well documented through LEO training, and is NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE outside of law enforcement, upon further reflection I have to agree with the advisement to maintain a dated copy of the study just in case.

    Many different scenarios are conceivable involving confrontation by a person armed with a knife well within that 21 foot radius. The average person/ juror is likely to wrongly perceive the existence of disparity in force favoring a gun over the knife wielder at 10 - 15 feet - well with the 21 foot radius.

  13. #13
    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    First post yay!

    I will toss this in that situational awareness can eliminate most instances of even being in the wrong place at the right time. I work downtown and until 6 months ago me and a coworker would frequent 7-11 and hang out on break watching people. he and i are 6' and built, look like LEO's etc etc... not people to mess with (but im a big cuddly bear actually) anyways one day we are talking and im telling him that letting people get in your circle (arms reach) is not a good thing. This was for people that want to bum money, arent brandishing a gun but could do harm within arms reach.

    A couple nights later we are hanging out on break again and i see this crazy bum lady straightlining it towards up and i give him a heads up and i take a couple steps back pull hands out of pockets and at the ready. He didnt move, hands in pockets still and seeing that i took a defensive position she went right to my friend and pretty much handled him. She turned to me to be friendly and i stepped back a couple more and told her far enough, still out of arms reach.

    He learned his lesson that day. Many people say im paranoid, i tell them im just hyper observant. It keeps me alive and damage free.

    So yes keeping people out of your space is a must, adjusting your position to be at the ready will give them a signal that you are not approachable and most people will turn around or take the b-line around you.

    smell
    sight
    sound
    movement

    always at the ready.

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