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Why are advocates for OC disliked so much?

Tanner

Tanner

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PistolPackingMomma said:
It's a forum, not a feel good club. Granted, we are generally a little tough on new folks, but it helps weed out those with skin thin. If you can cut it, it's a good place to learn.
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My opinion is its the best place to learn! And thick skin is a must. If feelings are eaisly hurt then they will be hurt. Most on here wont go out of their way to sugar coat, nor should they. Where would our country be without people who challenge us?
 
Ironbar

Ironbar

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Q. Why are advocates for OC disliked so much?

A. Because all it takes is one OC mall-ninja, Second-Amendment-Spouting dooshbag to ruin the image of everyone else who chooses to carry.
 
A

Aknazer

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GRIFFIN GUN & SECURITY said:
Just thought it kind of strange that to be coming into a forum full of gun lovin' carriers like myself, that there seems to be quite a bit of friction instead of like mindedness going on, lol.
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Well it probably doesn't help that you effectively pressed one of the big red buttons in this debate. The whole "OCer will be targeted" is one of the most commonly repeated reasons to CC instead of OC. And that arguement has been pretty well debunked but yet keeps getting repeated by people.

That isn't to say it isn't a "risk" but everything one does has risk. And most people who make the OC=target arguement typically refuse to admit that CCing also carries risks with it (not saying you are refusing to accept that there is a risk, but that goes back into making this a hot button subject).
 
Eeyore

Eeyore

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the meanest city in the stupidest state
PistolPackingMomma said:
An "Enhanced CCW"?
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Herr Heckler Koch said:
Yes. Default requires little and is quite restricted. Enhanced is for the elites, requires extensive training and has few restrictions. No shiite.
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Mississippi is the only state of which I am aware that has a regular (no training required) permit and an "enhanced" (training required) permit, and that just came into effect relatively recently (in the last year or two). There might be other states with similar schemes that haven't come to my attention.
 
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papa bear

papa bear

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could it be that CCers are like the women whom, are real straight laced and proper on the outside. "oh they have a reputation to keep up". but they wear sexy under wear that they are the only ones that know.

so maybe CCers just got their panties in a wad, up their crack as it were
 
Freedom1Man

Freedom1Man

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Dreamer said:
I live in MD now, where carry in ANY mode is essentialyl impossible unless you are wealthy or well-connected. I still TALK about OC and CC, and I'm active in the pro-2A movement here, contacting my state reps and testifying before the General Assembly on gun rights-related bills when I can. AndI'll admit the attitudes here among the citizenry are VASTLY different about defensive carry than just a few miles to the north, west or south (PA, WV or VA). I have actually had several people tell me that they think that anyone who would want to carry is insane. And to that sort of mentality, there is no response. You can't argue with stupid...
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Sorry to hear that. I hated the gun laws in that state when I was stationed there.
 
sawah

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GRIFFIN GUN & SECURITY said:
I do what I want to do, have my own opinions and I don't force them on anyone else, as should everybody. I'm new here at OpenCarry.org and I'm sure not feeling the love here at the moment, lol.
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You did say 'the first thing he's going to do is disarm you and use your firearm...' or words to that effect. This is what I consider to be nonsense. There have only been a handful of reports of any OC-er being disarmed and one of them is questionable.

By saying the above, you, a professional, are supporting and giving credence to a myth, and obviously, you don't think that a criminal would be able to disarm YOU, why would he be able do disarm anyone else? Note that a policeman goes INTO danger and that's primarily why there are attempts to grab his gun. He's got to be "too close" to the BG to take a report, he's got potentially multiple BGs to deal with and his attention is often divided onto the report and crime and his own safety.

So, perhaps you feel that POLICE should not OC, because there's potential for a BG to grab there gun (and there is, indeed). Yet you don't mention this and, instead, it appears, initially promulgated a myth of the gun-grab vulnerable OC-er who is standing yards away from a BG and usually has higher than usual SA, and, I might add, better training and firearm handling and draw capability than the average LEO who only goes to qualify when he must.

If you didn't mean to say that then fine, welcome to OCDO. :)
 
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Tucker6900

Tucker6900

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porterhouse83 said:
The conceal carry crowd really dislikes our method of carry. Isn't the 2nd a right no matter how you decide excercise is? I like their argument that we do it for attention. That's all I ever hear.
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Its the reasoning that the sheople make every time, without saying it. "I dont like what you are doing. So I am going to make an effort to tell you that I dont like it. And since I dont like it, you cant do it." Here is what I believe, even though I dont always say it. The people that cc but complain about oc are just as much sheep as the rest of the obedient public. They use excuses like, "I will catch them by surprise. I am not a target to a criminal. Its more tactically sound." But in the end, IMHO, they are obedient to the system that tells them where and when they can exercise their rights. This is what we need to get away from.

And we need to do this, not by adding more laws that say what we can do, but by getting rid of the laws that tells us what we cant do. In Michigan, my home state, there is no law against open carry, thats why its legal. Of all the things that state has done wrong, that is one of the few things it got right. The 2nd amendment affirms a right for us, and we do not need any other law.

That reasoning is used throughout out society.
 
Medic1210

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sawah said:
Your scenario is only going to work if the person OC-ing is asleep. You are saying that a BG is going to be able to walk the distance to the person, walk around them to their strong side, put their hand on the gun, disengage the retention and shoot the person before they can draw the weapon? Have you timed such an event? You're talking about 10 seconds to come in the store, get to the person, go to his side, grasp the gun, release the retention and draw faster than a person WEARING the firearm can pull it out?
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Actually, it would be easy to walk in, see a guy OC, pull your gun and point it at his head and say, I'll take that, thank you... Now, realistically this just doesn't happen, except a few LEO. Especially in the movies...

Anyway, not disputing what you're saying, just pointing out the more realistic option that you're conveniently leaving out to make your point. That being said, the one documented case I know of an OC individual being removed of his gun and being killed with it was exactly how you described. The OC was in a store. A thug walks in without his own weapon, saw the OC weapon, and went for it. In the struggle, the OC individual was shot and killed.
 
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Aknazer

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Medic1210 said:
Actually, it would be easy to walk in, see a guy OC, pull your gun and point it at his head and say, I'll take that, thank you... Now, realistically this just doesn't happen, except a few LEO. Especially in the movies...

Anyway, not disputing what you're saying, just pointing out the more realistic option that you're conveniently leaving out to make your point. That being said, the one documented case I know of an OC individual being removed of his gun and being killed with it was exactly how you described. The OC was in a store. A thug walks in without his own weapon, saw the OC weapon, and went for it. In the struggle, the OC individual was shot and killed.
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Could you please cite this incident. The only true incident that I have heard of is where the OCer ended up chasing after the criminal and got shot, not that he was shot during the initial fight for the gun.
 
Medic1210

Medic1210

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Aknazer said:
Could you please cite this incident. The only true incident that I have heard of is where the OCer ended up chasing after the criminal and got shot, not that he was shot during the initial fight for the gun.
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Sure thing. HYG... http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...e-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
 
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G

gobbly

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ccwinstructor said:
There is often a progression. People go from a gun in the home or hunting to concealed carry, to open carry. Each step takes a little more confidence and guts.

People who have not yet gotten to the point of being confident enough to open carry sometimes resent being reminded of it.

Open carriers show that they are willing to put themselves on the line to restore Constitutional rights. They are willing to face official disapproval to show that the people, and not the state, are still supreme. Many are not yet at that level of courage and will.
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Perhaps you misunderstood my tone :)

I was responding to the OP's statement, "The conceal carry crowd really dislikes our method of carry."

I CC and OC. depending on the situation. I also don't dislike others who OC, despite being licensed to CC and doing it frequently. I was just making light of the fact that I think blanket statements like the OP's are silly :)

Edit: where I live having a CC permit actually allows you to OC more effectively. the CC permit exempts me from the FGFSZA, allowing me to OC on any public school campus in my state, as well as to carry condition 1. Seemed like a win-win in my book :)
 
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A

Aknazer

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Medic1210 said:
Sure thing. HYG... http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...e-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
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K so it is the one I was thinking of. I would jist like to point out that the guy was killed after chasing after the perp who stole his gun and not during the initial struggle for the gun as the original post seemed to suggest to me. Which also shows that even with the ONE confirmed case the OCer wasn't "neutralized" as people like to claim will happen until after he was disarmed and proceeded to try and continue the confrontation.

EDIT: My clarification is for others that might not know about the incident and not directly aimed at you
 
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Medic1210

Medic1210

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Aknazer said:
K so it is the one I was thinking of. I would jist like to point out that the guy was killed after chasing after the perp who stole his gun and not during the initial struggle for the gun as the original post seemed to suggest to me. Which also shows that even with the ONE confirmed case the OCer wasn't "neutralized" as people like to claim will happen until after he was disarmed and proceeded to try and continue the confrontation.
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Yeah, it looks like he was shot after tryin to regain control/possession of his fiream. At any rate, it's hard to argue the underlying fact that he was open carrying and his gun was taken and used against him. Had his gun been concealed, it wouldn't have been target for a grab. Not saying OC is bad, just stating we can't overlook the possibility that the same thing can't or won't happen again.
 
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Aknazer

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Medic1210 said:
Yeah, it looks like he was shot after tryin to regain control/possession of his fiream. At any rate, it's hard to argue the underlying fact that he was open carrying and his gun was taken and used against him. Had his gun been concealed, it wouldn't have been target for a grab. Not saying OC is bad, just stating we can't overlook the possibility that the same thing can't or won't happen again.
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Oh ya it is a risk, but again I would like to point out that everything has risks. And this means that we now have all of one verifiable incident of an OCer being targeted for his gun (and I've heard of less than 5 total crimes against OCers where the perp didn't notice the gun before targeting them). Now compare this to the risk of a CCer being targeted for a crime because of how they look like other victims. I don't have hard stats on it, but one can simply look in various gun magazines for plenty of cases of CCers being targeted for crime.

Life is all about weighing risks vs benefits and type of carry is no different. Both have their risks and benefits.
 
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