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Thread: Oklahoma Association of Chiefs of Police and OKOCA

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Oklahoma Association of Chiefs of Police and OKOCA

    One of our Directors (hrdware) has been speaking with leaders of OACP and it looks as if they will be including OKOCA's Mission Statement along with one of our informational brochures in the handouts given to attendees of their meeting at the end of July. OACP representatives have also stated that they are "..excited to work with OKOCA" in developing their guidelines regarding the treatment and handling of OC'ers in the state of Oklahoma.

    We do need more members and funding for this opportunity to become a reality, so please join OKOCA and support our efforts in developing a dialogue with the LE community here in the state of Oklahoma. This along with our efforts in communicating with the Oklahoma Sheriffs Association are the first steps in making that happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield Smitty View Post
    One of our Directors (hrdware) has been speaking with leaders of OACP and it looks as if they will be including OKOCA's Mission Statement along with one of our informational brochures in the handouts given to attendees of their meeting at the end of July. OACP representatives have also stated that they are "..excited to work with OKOCA" in developing their guidelines regarding the treatment and handling of OC'ers in the state of Oklahoma.

    We do need more members and funding for this opportunity to become a reality, so please join OKOCA and support our efforts in developing a dialogue with the LE community here in the state of Oklahoma. This along with our efforts in communicating with the Oklahoma Sheriffs Association are the first steps in making that happen.
    This isn't rocket science. The guidelines are "leave OC'ers alone unless a crime has been committed". There is no special tactics or special training involved. Can't they just read the new law? Why does it need to be spoon fed to them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125 View Post
    This isn't rocket science. The guidelines are "leave OC'ers alone unless a crime has been committed". There is no special tactics or special training involved. Can't they just read the new law? Why does it need to be spoon fed to them?
    Because, unfortunately the law allows them to check for a permit. Also, since this is new, many officers have been trained that gun = bad. Retraining and understanding that holstered firearm = LAC is going to be a new concept for them. I keep getting asked, "What happens when the officer shows up to a shooting and there are 20 people with guns on their hips?". My answer is simple...A gun on the hip = LAC, pay attention to those if you want, but worry about the ones you don't see. Expect everyone of having a gun, suspect none of being a criminal for that reason alone.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    Because, unfortunately the law allows them to check for a permit. Also, since this is new, many officers have been trained that gun = bad. Retraining and understanding that holstered firearm = LAC is going to be a new concept for them.
    The only police officer I know in Oklahoma is a relatively young guy, in his 20s, on the force for about 3 years now.

    I asked his thoughts about the law, and he immediately responded that he doesn't like it. It's a knee-jerk response to something new, and there will be a lot of that.

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    You can't stop them from checking permits. Having group OC events are nice but those aren't the times the LEO is going to harass the public. They will wait until it's your word against their's. Then they will violate that person's rights because they know at the time they have the power and authority to do whatever they want.

    I do understand you are trying to play politics and get all chummy with the higher ups so they MIGHT pass it down the chain of command.

    Your membership drives gives high hopes for your members but when they are the ones getting harassed the cute certificate on their wall, membership card in their wallet, name on a list or bumper sticker on their car won't get them very far.

    You can't scare off the boogieman even if he is wearing a uniform and looks like one of the good guys.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125 View Post
    You can't stop them from checking permits. Having group OC events are nice but those aren't the times the LEO is going to harass the public. They will wait until it's your word against their's. Then they will violate that person's rights because they know at the time they have the power and authority to do whatever they want.

    I do understand you are trying to play politics and get all chummy with the higher ups so they MIGHT pass it down the chain of command.

    Your membership drives gives high hopes for your members but when they are the ones getting harassed the cute certificate on their wall, membership card in their wallet, name on a list or bumper sticker on their car won't get them very far.

    You can't scare off the boogieman even if he is wearing a uniform and looks like one of the good guys.
    Grassroots organizations are a very valid and direct way to influence state legislators and the court of public opinion. There is power in numbers. Plus it sure beats sitting on your hands and complaining.......right?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-15-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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    Regular Member FireHawk911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125 View Post
    You can't stop them from checking permits. Having group OC events are nice but those aren't the times the LEO is going to harass the public. They will wait until it's your word against their's. Then they will violate that person's rights because they know at the time they have the power and authority to do whatever they want.

    I do understand you are trying to play politics and get all chummy with the higher ups so they MIGHT pass it down the chain of command.

    Your membership drives gives high hopes for your members but when they are the ones getting harassed the cute certificate on their wall, membership card in their wallet, name on a list or bumper sticker on their car won't get them very far.

    You can't scare off the boogieman even if he is wearing a uniform and looks like one of the good guys.
    Not to familiar with the way things work in Oklahoma are you. Oh well, OKOCA will be successful in their mission.

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    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125 View Post
    You can't stop them from checking permits. Having group OC events are nice but those aren't the times the LEO is going to harass the public. They will wait until it's your word against their's. Then they will violate that person's rights because they know at the time they have the power and authority to do whatever they want.

    I do understand you are trying to play politics and get all chummy with the higher ups so they MIGHT pass it down the chain of command.

    Your membership drives gives high hopes for your members but when they are the ones getting harassed the cute certificate on their wall, membership card in their wallet, name on a list or bumper sticker on their car won't get them very far.

    You can't scare off the boogieman even if he is wearing a uniform and looks like one of the good guys.
    Maverick, there is a problem here, whether it is perceived or real. You can be part of the solution, or you can sit on your hands and be a part of the problem.
    A pro-active solution is better than a reactive one. Get involved and get positive.

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    Ok..which will help me more: Something on my wall, in my wallet, my name on a public list for my employer and everyone else to see, or a bumper sticker on my car?

    If these members really wanted to see their money go to good use they would vote to stop wasting it on junk for the members.

    Since it's not Nov 1 yet how can you be part of the problem if the problem hasn't started yet. I'm waiting (sitting on my hands) as you all say, because the law right now hasn't changed.

    Since it will be legal for LEO to check each and every person OCing it's a losing battle to think you won't be stopped and checked at some time or all the time.

    You can "educate" the dispatchers and LEA all you want but when they get the man with a gun call they WILL check it out because it is their duty to make the public feel safe. Since it is written in the law that they CAN check for your CL and DL why would they not? It's in their best interest to check you out then to not check you out.

    I'm for the required training and background checks to get a permit. While going through the CC class there were people in the class that had no business handling a gun.

    I have a question for the OKOCA leaders. At events where all are invited to OC how are you going to make sure everyone at the event that OC is doing so legally? All it takes is one person who is not legal to put your reputation at stake. What if that person is a member? Are you going to check to make sure all your members have a CL and DL when they sign up and hand you money?

    We aren't like other states where you have the right to not show ID.
    Last edited by maverick1125; 06-16-2012 at 11:40 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125 View Post
    We aren't like other states where you have the right to not show ID.
    The US Constitution says (in the Bill of Rights) you do not have to show ID. That is if LEO does not have RAS of a crime. Has your State allowed LEOs to "stop & ID" ??

    i found this in my file........
    As of 2008, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in criminal activity.

    But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. One way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you're free to go. You could do this by saying "Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?" If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and refrain from answering any additional questions.

    If you're detained, you'll have to decide whether withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you're on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state's laws can help you make the best choice.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125 View Post
    Ok..which will help me more: Something on my wall, in my wallet, my name on a public list for my employer and everyone else to see, or a bumper sticker on my car?
    Cite for membership list being public please. Virtually all RKBA groups provide membership cards as it helps build a espirit de corps and provides a reference/membership number when needed. Some even have discounts associated with them as well.


    If these members really wanted to see their money go to good use they would vote to stop wasting it on junk for the members.
    This is how money is raised to meet expenses and further their goals. Hardly seems like "junk."


    Since it's not Nov 1 yet how can you be part of the problem if the problem hasn't started yet. I'm waiting (sitting on my hands) as you all say, because the law right now hasn't changed.
    Yep - better to wait until after the fact, then talk about it a bit longer....while sitting on your hands.


    Since it will be legal for LEO to check each and every person OCing it's a losing battle to think you won't be stopped and checked at some time or all the time.

    You can "educate" the dispatchers and LEA all you want but when they get the man with a gun call they WILL check it out because it is their duty to make the public feel safe. Since it is written in the law that they CAN check for your CL and DL why would they not? It's in their best interest to check you out then to not check you out.

    Cite for it is LEA/LEO " duty to make the public feel safe," please. Great improvement in the interaction between LAC and LEO has been made in states with organized, proactive grassroots groups. Would expect similar results here.


    I'm for the required training and background checks to get a permit. While going through the CC class there were people in the class that had no business handling a gun.
    So you are opposed to Constitutional Carry. While going through Lamaze class, I met people that had no business having children - guess they should have been barred or maybe that is how they got better trained/educated........hmmm? Guess one should be trained (to what degree?) to create life or to defend it..........NOT!


    I have a question for the OKOCA leaders. At events where all are invited to OC how are you going to make sure everyone at the event that OC is doing so legally? All it takes is one person who is not legal to put your reputation at stake. What if that person is a member? Are you going to check to make sure all your members have a CL and DL when they sign up and hand you money?

    My home group (VCDL) does not suggest/require how or even if a member or attendee carry. Each person is individually responsible for following the laws. We do ask that there be no handling/touching of guns both in public and in an unsafe way. You would appear to think that those that don't actively carry or drive should be precluded from joining - strange that.


    We aren't like other states where you have the right to not show ID.
    States are like people = no two are exactly the same. Doesn't mean that is not some measurable commonality.
    My comments are embedded and bolded above.

    Appreciate those that would try to identify potential problems and seek solutions to them. Don't appreciate those that only disparage and caste negative references - I make no secret of that. People may chose to be part of the problem or part of the solution - what is in your wallet?

    My apologies to OKOCA. I do not speak for you. Just could not, or choose not, to sit back and let this continue w/o saying my piece. The success of OKOCA will be felt and effect others well beyond your borders.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Ok..which will help me more: Something on my wall, in my wallet, my name on a public list for my employer and everyone else to see, or a bumper sticker on my car?
    Cite for membership list being public please. Virtually all RKBA groups provide membership cards as it helps build a espirit de corps and provides a reference/membership number when needed. Some even have discounts associated with them as well.

    Ask to see their membership application and you will see that one of the grand prizes for the top membership is your name and on their website FOR LIFE


    If these members really wanted to see their money go to good use they would vote to stop wasting it on junk for the members.
    This is how money is raised to meet expenses and further their goals. Hardly seems like "junk."

    The junk is the other prizes that go with membership that could be used in better ways


    Since it's not Nov 1 yet how can you be part of the problem if the problem hasn't started yet. I'm waiting (sitting on my hands) as you all say, because the law right now hasn't changed.
    Yep - better to wait until after the fact, then talk about it a bit longer....while sitting on your hands.

    After the fact of what? The fact isn't even here yet to be to late for.


    Since it will be legal for LEO to check each and every person OCing it's a losing battle to think you won't be stopped and checked at some time or all the time.

    You can "educate" the dispatchers and LEA all you want but when they get the man with a gun call they WILL check it out because it is their duty to make the public feel safe. Since it is written in the law that they CAN check for your CL and DL why would they not? It's in their best interest to check you out then to not check you out.

    Cite for it is LEA/LEO " duty to make the public feel safe," please. Great improvement in the interaction between LAC and LEO has been made in states with organized, proactive grassroots groups. Would expect similar results here.

    Cite state law for it is LEA/LEO not allowed to check your ID? As we are in a litigation country it cost them nothing to check your ID yet if they had the chance to check and not do it because that person "looked" legal then if something were to happen to the person who called it in then the PD would be sued.


    I'm for the required training and background checks to get a permit. While going through the CC class there were people in the class that had no business handling a gun.
    So you are opposed to Constitutional Carry. While going through Lamaze class, I met people that had no business having children - guess they should have been barred or maybe that is how they got better trained/educated........hmmm? Guess one should be trained (to what degree?) to create life or to defend it..........NOT!

    Your analogy doesn't even compare so no need to respond.


    I have a question for the OKOCA leaders. At events where all are invited to OC how are you going to make sure everyone at the event that OC is doing so legally? All it takes is one person who is not legal to put your reputation at stake. What if that person is a member? Are you going to check to make sure all your members have a CL and DL when they sign up and hand you money?

    My home group (VCDL) does not suggest/require how or even if a member or attendee carry. Each person is individually responsible for following the laws. We do ask that there be no handling/touching of guns both in public and in an unsafe way. You would appear to think that those that don't actively carry or drive should be precluded from joining - strange that.

    Question wasn't up for grabs...you should have precluded from joining- strange that


    We aren't like other states where you have the right to not show ID.
    States are like people = no two are exactly the same. Doesn't mean that is not some measurable commonality.

    I guess you just like to see yourself gab because your "answer" had no meaning to the subject.

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    Regular Member FireHawk911's Avatar
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    So maverick, going with your logic, the only time to start carrying a gun is AFTER you have been victimized, but I have a feeling you carry to prevent being attacked, am I correct? OKOCA is trying to prevent LEA/LEA for abusing their privilege to check our license. According to Webster, MAY and MUST are very different words. the law give them the OPTION to check a license, NOT the obligation.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125 View Post
    --snip--

    I guess you just like to see yourself gab because your "answer" had no meaning to the subject.
    You "guess" wrong and presume to much, Sir Maverick.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireHawk911 View Post
    So maverick, going with your logic, the only time to start carrying a gun is AFTER you have been victimized, but I have a feeling you carry to prevent being attacked, am I correct? OKOCA is trying to prevent LEA/LEA for abusing their privilege to check our license. According to Webster, MAY and MUST are very different words. the law give them the OPTION to check a license, NOT the obligation.
    Good point but most of the checking of IDs will happen after a call to 911 which is my point. It will be MAY if the LEO sees it but a MUST if it's called in. LEA don't want to take the chance when there is a paper trail. Sometime politics in the city trumps logic. Good luck if you think you won't get checked in bricktown, OKC holy grail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125 View Post
    Good point but most of the checking of IDs will happen after a call to 911 which is my point. It will be MAY if the LEO sees it but a MUST if it's called in. LEA don't want to take the chance when there is a paper trail. Sometime politics in the city trumps logic. Good luck if you think you won't get checked in bricktown, OKC holy grail.
    It is NOT a MUST to check just because there was a 911 call. If it is a MUST then please show me in the law that says so. Regardless of what the cops end up doing, it is not a must. The goal is obviously to cut off the police before they misguidedly start abusing our rights, rather than waiting till after to correct the problem.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Maverick,

    If you have attended any of our meetings, you would know that we give people the option to NOT have their name listed if they don't want that with the Founding or Charter Memberships. My girlfriend and I work for the same major employer which serves the citizens of the OKC metro area and she has elected not to be in group pictures for OKOCA because of our employer. Personally, I would love for them to discontinue my employment because of a legal activity I am involved in while off-duty. The money won in the ensuing lawsuit would get me through until I found a new source of income.

    As for how the funds raised are being used, if you don't like that I do not apologize. OKOCA is being modeled after such successful groups in other states. If you are a member of our group feel free to voice your concerns at a business meeting. If you are not, you may still talk all you want on forums like this (it's obviously your 1st Amendment right which is protected by your 2nd Amendment right), but your complaints will not bear any weight with OKOCA. If we listened to every criticism from someone who was not a member of our organization, we obviously wouldn't have come this far.

    We are hoping to affect the way dispatchers and responding LEO's handle MWAG calls. This all starts with dispatchers explaining to callers that OC is legal and unless there is a crime being committed, an officer's time should not be wasted. This is currently done with other issues, and as a matter of fact, if people continue to call after being told that no crime has been committed they can be cited or even arrested for abuse of the 911 system. We are hoping to change the perception of OC and that can begin (and be very effective) with LEA's. I speak to this issue as a former LEO myself.

    As for the stop-and-ID part of this law; someone has already stated that we are encouraging LEO's to realize that SB 1733 only gives them the authority to do so - NOT the obligation. This is someone who has obviously attended one of our meetings, so thank you FireHawk for being a supporting member of OKOCA. It is also a valid argument that the current law is a violation of our Federal 4th Amendment rights. It is no different than local governments putting up "gun buster" signs in public parks. Just because a city passes an ordinance or a state passes a law, it does not mean it is legal for them to enforce it. We are trying to save our members from violations of their 4th Amendment rights and LE and government agencies from lawsuits that will waste taxpayer money.

    As for the manner in which people choose to carry at our events, we don't care as long as it's legal. Our mission statement clearly states that we are here to educate and inform...regarding the LEGAL open carry of a handgun. We will not be checking on the legality of people carrying at our events. This is none of our business and outside the scope of our authority as ordinary citizens. There will be plenty of LAC carrying at such events and I am certain that our events will be no different than everyday life in that criminals will not choose to OC. All that said, we are strong supporters of constitutional carry and will be advocates for such.

    Maverick, this will be the only response you will receive from me as long as you continue to be argumentative without knowing what our organization is even about. I strongly recommend that you attend one of our informational meetings before slamming us based upon what you think you know about OKOCA. But hey...congratulations on still having your 1st Amendment right to speak out. We are fighting hard to protect and ENHANCE your 2nd Amendment right which protects all your others. So, you're welcome for that. I would suggest that you join OKOCA and exercise your membership privilege to vote if you don't like the way we are doing it.

    Grapeshot, I liked the child bearing analogy. I thought it was very relevant and appropriate. I did not take any issue with you enlightening Maverick, but I did appreciate your disclaimer that you did not speak for OKOCA. We OC'ers and true constitutional carry advocates have to stick together!!
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

  18. #18
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    how can you be part of the problem if the problem hasn't started yet.
    It appears that the OK OC org is trying to be what's called proactive (seeing a potential problem & taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen) instead of what's called reactive (waiting until the problem happens, then trying to stop it from happening again).

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    when they get the man with a gun call they WILL check it out because it is their duty to make the public feel safe.
    Nope. It's their job to protect the public at large. Has nothing to do with making people feel safe, or protecting any particular person (even one who's called 911 for help - see Warren v. District of Columbia).

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    Since it is written in the law that they CAN check for your CL and DL why would they not?
    Because it's established case law (see Delaware v. Prouse, decided by SCOTUS in 1979) that absent RAS of a crime it's illegal to stop someone simply to check for a license to perform an activity.
    Quote Originally Posted by SCOTUS
    Except where there is at least articulable and reasonable suspicion that a motorist is unlicensed or that an automobile is not registered, or that either the vehicle or an occupant is otherwise subject to seizure for violation of law, stopping an automobile and detaining the driver in order to check his driver's license and the registration of the automobile are unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment.
    That ruling is why officers are now trained to lie when they pull you over to check your license & registration. (They'll make up something about a light being out, or swerving, even when you both know it didn't happen & the light is fine.)

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    It's in their best interest to check you out then [sic] to not check you out.
    Since it's illegal for them to "check you out", & likely to result in 1983 suits, & criminals don't carry openly, they have no RAS of a crime to support a stop/search/seizure/frisk.
    So I'd say it's in their best interest to do no more than drive by & look to see that the person has a properly holstered pistol.

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    I'm for the required training and background checks to get a permit. While going through the CC class there were people in the class that had no business handling a gun.
    What other civil rights are you willing to turn into privileges?
    Please post a picture of your training certificate & license which allow you to speak your mind here.
    [Yes, that's a bad example, as this is a private site & your 1A rights don't apply here... but it's the closest we have.]

    Please show us the multitude of problems caused by citizens in states which don't require gov't interference in order to OC, or even cc... problems which could have been prevented by training the citizens.
    I know of plenty which could be prevented by training the LEO involved. But hey, don't they already have training? Aren't they supposed to know the laws they're hired to enforce? Aren't they supposed to know how safely to handle the firearms they're issued to do their jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    how are you going to make sure everyone at the event that OC is doing so legally?
    If someone is carrying openly, even the FBI says it's highly unlikely (as in, close enough to be called zero chance) that that person is a criminal.

    Here's a site with links to the chapters in the FBI report. It was published in AUG06 & is titled "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers".

    They did interviews with federal felons to find out the background, the beliefs, of those who had attacked police. IIRC, it's in chapter 4 where they say that none of the criminals carried openly, & only 1 occasionally used a holster.

    Surely our highly-trained officers are professionals who keep up with research in their field, right? So this federal study published almost 6 years ago has certainly made its way into every LEA in the nation by now, giving them no excuse to harass citizens who are OC.

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    Since it will be legal for LEO to check each and every person OCing it's a losing battle to think you won't be stopped and checked at some time or all the time.
    When people think like this, the police have already won.
    When people stand up for their rights & (figuratively) kick the police in the shins when they try to do something wrong, our rights are preserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    it cost them nothing to check your ID
    Except the cost of trying to defend against the lawsuits & paying out the damage awards.
    Federal civil rights suits can be expensive for the wrongdoers.

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick1125
    yet if they had the chance to check and not do it because that person "looked" legal then if something were to happen to the person who called it in then the PD would be sued.
    Not successfully.
    Read the Warren v. DC link above.
    Despite the egregious and flagrant disregard for their "duty to protect", the police were not successfully sued by the victims of their misconduct.
    Similar rulings have been issued across the country.
    The police have NO duty to protect you, & you have no recourse when they fail to do so, unless you're in custody.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    i found this in my file...
    One way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you're free to go. You could do this by saying "Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?" If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and refrain from answering any additional questions.
    I believe it was Citizen here on OCDO who recommends:
    "Why am I being detained?"
    Because if you have to ask, you are being detained.
    Make them give you a reason or tell you they're not detaining you.
    Once you have their admission that they are detaining you, your 4A & 5A rights are even more in force.
    And if they admit they're not detaining you, LEAVE.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  19. #19
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    BTW, see the video in post 17 of this thread on the WI forum for a contrast of how 2 cities handled "there are people here carrying openly" calls.

    The one that made a big stink (Madison, WI), ended up paying to settle the 1983 suit.
    The one that had properly trained its officers (Delavan, WI) conserved its resources.

    What's even more funny is that at Delavan there wasn't just one person OC, it was our monthly gathering & there were probably closer to 40. We've had up to 60.
    I also think it's funny how they have Starbuck's on speed dial.

  20. #20
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    If they had the "reputation" feature enabled on this forum, I'd be giving MKEgal all I could, for that detailed response, with cites.

  21. #21
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Maverick: The state if Washingon does not mandate any personal training to Open Carry (unlicensed), OR Concealed Carry (Licensed)...we view training an individual's Personal responsibility. One size does not fit all, so we allow each individual define what level of training they wishe to have that will gain a good comfort level for their own safety.

    Guess what, it's never created a problem here. In all probability, on average, we probably have Better trained licensees in WA than some other states that mandate a particular level of training.

    A second item here is a lot of good poor people cannot afford the extra cost of "training" (think of the cost of training for Texas and NM), but those poor people can still protect themseves here. That is more important than anything else don't you think?

    I'm not a big fan of CC, unlicensed OC is fine for me (but CC does have it's place, especially in winter) but I am even less of a fan of legal "gotya's" that have no reasonable purpose, so I do have a CPL, just in case I want to wear a coat.
    Last edited by hermannr; 06-20-2012 at 11:44 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    The only police officer I know in Oklahoma is a relatively young guy, in his 20s, on the force for about 3 years now.

    I asked his thoughts about the law, and he immediately responded that he doesn't like it. It's a knee-jerk response to something new, and there will be a lot of that.
    oh come on- that pisses me off now!!! i'll have to give him a piece of my mind!!!

  23. #23
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If you are free to go and have business 'there', don't go, you have business there. Make the cop go. Why interrupt your normal comings and goings any more than has already occurred by a uneducated LEO.

    In Missouri OC is not illegal, where it has not been made illegal by political subdivisions.

    My applicable municipal code.
    SECTION 210.250: WEAPONS -- CARRYING CONCEALED -- OTHER UNLAWFUL USE

    A. A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons if he/she knowingly:

    6. Openly carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;

    D. Subparagraphs (1), (6) and (7) of Subsection (A) of this Section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to Sections 571.101 to 571.121, RSMo., or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another State or political subdivision of another State.
    Not a defense to the crime of OC, but a exemption from the law.

    Any LEO can ask for my CCW endorsement, failure (refusal) to comply with his request is not a crime but I may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed $35.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  24. #24
    Regular Member Oklapatriot's Avatar
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    Maybe we should have pushed for all legal CC personnel be issued a "stinkin' badge" that we could wear on our belt when open carrying. A BIG gold badge with our permit number engraved on it. Wouldn't that piss off the law enforcement guys? That way we could clearly identify ourselves as legal gun packing citizens. That would also allow some of us to utter the famous words "Badge?, I don't need no stinking badge."

  25. #25
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    I can't wait until Nov 1. All this talk and pounding your chest on the internet is all good and fun until reality sets in and you are standing there in cuffs demanding your rights only to find out the cop is planning to make stuff up to make himself look good and you bad since it's their word against yours.

    Those that say we need to stand up for our rights are probably the same ones that think it's ok to delete posts and deny someone 1st amendment rights.

    See just like the cops we have cyber cops that if you say something they don't like they can use their authority to do do whatever they want since they are now emotionally involved.

    Thanks for proving my point.

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