Encountering mentally ill people, while out OC'ing

DJEEPER said:

This is how I see this situation...

First off, thank you for posting it... it really is a great tool!

Second... everyone has a different demeanor about how they handle things. The important thing here is that you handled it your way....how you were most comfortable with...and walked away no harm, no foul.

Third (everything comes in threes, right? )... the lady could have been bluffing... or baiting you...trying to get you to overreact in order to get some sort of settlement. Us "GUN NUTS" have this image that looms over us, thanks to the common media, that we are a bunch of idiotic rednecks who are trigger happy wackos. I have heard of much crazier things people have done to try to get a quick settlement from a lawsuit. All you had to do was take an assertive step towards her, she falls down and claims neck injury on your fault.


In closing....there are many different ways to look at this situation. Different people have different opinions on how to handle a situation. You handled yours how you felt best and it worked out just fine. Pat yourself on the back and chalk it up as a victory. Good job on remaining calm and in control.

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+1.5

P.S. Skidmark would have diagnosed their condition, prescribed the proper medicine, lectured them on being loud, given them a handful of OC Cards and VCDL applications and they would have run out of the place with their hands over their ears.

I would have politely asked them if the had a place to stay and given them $20.00 for food:uhoh:

Glockmom -

I agree that there might be a problem with the typed word conveying everything we want it to. Seems to happen in both directions.

We agree that the next-to-last thing desired is to get into a confrontation. We also agree that sometimes details that give a better picture are left out because it makes a good story sound like a really bad police report.

I agree that the presence of the handgun would be helpful if things went rodeo. Maybe it was just the way you typed it that allowed me to read into it.

Peter Nap -

You know darned well that I am not allowed to prescribe! But there is nothing saying I cannot suggest a few drugs to talk with the doc about getting started on.

And when their hands are full of OC cards and VCDL applications they cannot be used to hold dangerous objects like weapons or Frostys. Different tactics to reach the same goal.

stay safe.

Glockmom and you using a recorder? these things could help if brought into a court room, in a battle of he/she said etc...

GlockMom said:

She might have been trying to start a fight. I find though that people usually have a hard time fighting with other people if the other person does not engage in the fight. I ignored her and her comments, comments don't harm me and mine permanently so I try to ignore them.

I have thought about it. However, I wanna read up more on VA laws in regard to detaining someone who meant to do me harm. If the laws permit, I don't see an reason not to carry them. I could be wrong. *shrugs*

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I would say bad idea. You put your hands on someone uninvited and I believe it's simple assault. (IANAL).

sawah said:

I would say bad idea. You put your hands on someone uninvited and I believe it's simple assault. (IANAL).

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Wrong ....sawah;

By code, you can make a Citizens arrest if you know the person has committed a felony.

By Common Law and Supreme Court Decisions, you can arrest on a misdemeanor if the person commits a breach of the peace.

That said, there wasn't any need to arrest in that situation.

peter nap said:

Wrong ....sawah;

By code, you can make a Citizens arrest if you know the person has committed a felony.

By Common Law and Supreme Court Decisions, you can arrest on a misdemeanor if the person commits a breach of the peace.

That said, there wasn't any need to arrest in that situation.

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Wrong? Don't you have to prove it was a felony? (or misdemeanor?), and how do you prove it if the person contests the "facts"? Also, if you are wrong I believe you risk being charged for kidnapping.

IMO, it's not a good idea as a citizen (non-LEO) to try and cuff someone, or even detain them. I would suggest getting video and then you have proof and the authorities can do it. But I don't believe it's 'wrong' that putting your uninvited hands on someone can result in a charge of simple assault. YMMV, do it at your peril.

sawah said:

Wrong? Don't you have to prove it was a felony? (or misdemeanor?), and how do you prove it if the person contests the "facts"? Also, if you are wrong I believe you risk being charged for kidnapping.

IMO, it's not a good idea as a citizen (non-LEO) to try and cuff someone, or even detain them. I would suggest getting video and then you have proof and the authorities can do it. But I don't believe it's 'wrong' that putting your uninvited hands on someone can result in a charge of simple assault. YMMV, do it at your peril.

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Whe I saw the headline to this thread, I though it was going to be a story about visiting the General Assembly in MD while OCing--then I realized that couldn't be it.

OC is generally not allowed in MD...

peter nap said:

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You've been harping too long, your halo is slipping.

Look up Citizen's arrest in Wiki.
Many ex-LEOs won't try (alone) to handcuff anyone and they are trained. Did I mention it takes training to properly put on cuffs? Did I mention that you can do it wrong and injure someone?
Cops do it but they frequently have a partner or two helping them

Here's a long discussion on THR about it

Almost no one says it's advisable, so unless you have a Peter Nap application on your smartphone, don't do it.

sawah said:

Wrong? Don't you have to prove it was a felony? (or misdemeanor?), and how do you prove it if the person contests the "facts"? Also, if you are wrong I believe you risk being charged for kidnapping.

IMO, it's not a good idea as a citizen (non-LEO) to try and cuff someone, or even detain them. I would suggest getting video and then you have proof and the authorities can do it. But I don't believe it's 'wrong' that putting your uninvited hands on someone can result in a charge of simple assault. YMMV, do it at your peril.

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How do you "prove it"? Gee we're right back to digital recorders aren't we + other witnesses and perhaps even (gasp) hard evidence. Being a good witness may be the best course of action, but this is another "what-if" exercise.

Putting hands on someone is never simple assault in Va. That would be assault and battery,
http://www.livesaymyers.com/2012/03/there-is-nothing-simple-about-simple.html

An assault is the apprehension of a harmful or offensive contact, while a battery is the actual harmful or offensive contact. Thus, even if you did not actually make contact with the individual, you could still be found guilty of assault; but if you actually did make contact, you could be found guilty of assault and battery.
http://www.lawyers-virginia.com/criminal-law/assault-battery.html

Common Law Right to Make Citizens Arrest for Felony or Breach of the Peace committed in His Presence
http://www.virginia1774.org/Commonlaw.html

sawah said:

You've been harping too long, your halo is slipping.

Look up Citizen's arrest in Wiki.
Many ex-LEOs won't try (alone) to handcuff anyone and they are trained. Did I mention it takes training to properly put on cuffs? Did I mention that you can do it wrong and injure someone?
Cops do it but they frequently have a partner or two helping them

Here's a long discussion on THR about it

Almost no one says it's advisable, so unless you have a Peter Nap application on your smartphone, don't do it.

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Why don't you stick to what you know (whatever that is) and quit second guessing things you don't understand.

sawah said:

You've been harping too long, your halo is slipping.

Look up Citizen's arrest in Wiki.
Many ex-LEOs won't try (alone) to handcuff anyone and they are trained. Did I mention it takes training to properly put on cuffs? Did I mention that you can do it wrong and injure someone?
Cops do it but they frequently have a partner or two helping them

Here's a long discussion on THR about it

Almost no one says it's advisable, so unless you have a Peter Nap application on your smartphone, don't do it.

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Sawah - you ask for answers and when they are given to you, you counter with Wiki and THR - really?

My previous post with cites, substantiates what Mr. Nap has told you. Don't know that he was harping on you at all - think he was just making sweet calming music and behaving angelically rather than loosening the hounds from Hades.

BTW - don't see that anyone recommended jumping in with a citizen's arrest routinely - only that it was legal - it is :exclaim:

peter nap said:

Why don't you stick to what you know (whatever that is) and quit second guessing things you don't understand.

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I know it's frustrating for you, but don't you know the Internet Rule #4, 'the best way to learn something is to post something wrong on a forum'.

I gave some references and some opinions. This is a forum. That's what people do on a forum. However, SOME people feel the purpose of a forum is to stalk other posters and criticize them. Uh, much like a critic, who has no good input but has a lot of time to snipe at others'.

sawah said:

You've been harping too long, your halo is slipping.

Look up Citizen's arrest in Wiki.
Many ex-LEOs won't try (alone) to handcuff anyone and they are trained. Did I mention it takes training to properly put on cuffs? Did I mention that you can do it wrong and injure someone?
Cops do it but they frequently have a partner or two helping them

Here's a long discussion on THR about it

Almost no one says it's advisable, so unless you have a Peter Nap application on your smartphone, don't do it.

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I'd also like to point out, I would not recommend someone solo cuffing someone, I ment in a group. I saw a cops episode and the bouncer and other people in the crowd tried to hold him back while police came. The guy was on some drug and wouldn't sit still with four guys on him.

sawah said:

I know it's frustrating for you, but don't you know the Internet Rule #4, 'the best way to learn something is to post something wrong on a forum'.

I gave some references and some opinions. This is a forum. That's what people do on a forum. However, SOME people feel the purpose of a forum is to stalk other posters and criticize them. Uh, much like a critic, who has no good input but has a lot of time to snipe at others'.

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I gave the right information and as usual, you jumped in with your silliness...which I think the la dee dee da act is just that.
The law on Citizens Arrest is crystal clear...You just try to muddy it up with nonsense!

sawah said:

I know it's frustrating for you, but don't you know the Internet Rule #4, 'the best way to learn something is to post something wrong on a forum'.

I gave some references and some opinions. This is a forum. That's what people do on a forum. However, SOME people feel the purpose of a forum is to stalk other posters and criticize them. Uh, much like a critic, who has no good input but has a lot of time to snipe at others'.

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Internet rule #1, Sawah, is learn to look up reliable evidence/data yourself. While there is no great sin in asking less than informed questions occasionally, a history of doing so repetitively and then offering the same excuses as before weighs heavily in the negative column.

Now you deem to suggest, if only by innuendo, that someone is stalking you with the purpose of criticizing you? Try clicking on What's New, New Posts (top left corner of each page), or just reading the threads to stay up to date, before you again consider to make such baseless accusations.

Then you compound the personal insult by intimating that those trying to lead you in the correct direction have "no good input" and are "sniping" at you. Me thinks the lady brings such attention on herself.

From my position (officially) I perceive that most (all?) of this on going problem (from thread to thread) has been due to the style you adopt + unsubstantiated claims, misstatement of facts, quick to defend the indefensible and then ending with the now customary apology and the "I'm just trying to learn." Why is everybody picking on you? They're not. They started off trying to help you, but their patience is running short.

Personally I wouldn't carry the cuffs. I can probably see some reasons for carrying them but cuffing someone by yourself can get ugly....I've witnessed it...LOL. I've given assistance while an officer was having a hard time and it can get pretty hairy. (I was working security at the time)

Just a couple weeks ago a buddy of mine dropped by and told me about a story where a female had bent a pair of his hinge-cuffs as if they were a pop can. She was hyped up on bath salts and running wide open when she decided to play: "World's Strongest Woman" :monkey

BlueRidgeTrapper said:

Personally I wouldn't carry the cuffs. I can probably see some reasons for carrying them but cuffing someone by yourself can get ugly....I've witnessed it...LOL. I've given assistance while an officer was having a hard time and it can get pretty hairy. (I was working security at the time)

Just a couple weeks ago a buddy of mine dropped by and told me about a story where a female had bent a pair of his hinge-cuffs as if they were a pop can. She was hyped up on bath salts and running wide open when she decided to play: "World's Strongest Woman" :monkey

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At least she didn't try to have him for dinner:lol:

peter nap said:

At least she didn't try to have him for dinner:lol:

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If she would've tried that I think his 4 legged German friend might have had something to say LOL...You never know who's going to be hopped up on meth or bath salts or Lord knows what else anymore. The best thing for myself and my family to do is to avoid these people if at all possible.

BlueRidgeTrapper said:

If she would've tried that I think his 4 legged German friend might have had something to say LOL...You never know who's going to be hopped up on meth or bath salts or Lord knows what else anymore. The best thing for myself and my family to do is to avoid these people if at all possible.

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Yep, times have changed. Used to be all you ran across were moonshiners and we usually knew them. They weren't any trouble unless you got too nosy. Then the pot growers moved into the National Forest then the meth labs. Those people aren't much fun.

Even the small cities like Harrisonburg and Staunton have major drug problems now.

Most of the problems are coming down 81 and 95 from North of Ashland!:lol: (You'll figure that joke out soon)

I enjoy just having Bears as neighbors.