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Thread: California Handgun Open Carry Redux

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    California Handgun Open Carry Redux

    According to Penal Code Section 26389: "Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying of an unloaded handgun if the handgun is carried either in the locked trunk of a motor vehicle or in a locked container." Whereas Penal Code Section 12026.1 defines a locked container as "a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock; combination lock, or similar locking device."

    Here is one version of a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Appearing daily at the 2800 block of Sand Hill Road at an entrance to an office complex near the Rosewood Sand Hill hotel at Interstate 280 in Menlo Park:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
    http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    According to Penal Code Section 26389: "Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying of an unloaded handgun if the handgun is carried either in the locked trunk of a motor vehicle or in a locked container." Whereas Penal Code Section 12026.1 defines a locked container as "a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock; combination lock, or similar locking device."

    Here is one version of a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LUC.jpg 
Views:	528 
Size:	62.7 KB 
ID:	8634

    Appearing daily at the 2800 block of Sand Hill Road at an entrance to an office complex near the Rosewood Sand Hill hotel at Interstate 280 in Menlo Park:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SandHillRoad.jpg 
Views:	535 
Size:	87.4 KB 
ID:	8635

    --
    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
    http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
    I would like to share a couple of comments.

    1) L.U.C.C. is not 'open carry' and as such cannot be considered a redux of said activity. It is a legal alternative to open or licensed carry.

    2) Most flap holsters are not fully enclosed or considered secure.

    3) I personally dont take issue if one has some beef with an alleged rapist or the fact that one wants to exersize their right to free speech, but the intermingling of the two with gun activism AND getting dressed up in an army costume is a freaking grab bag of horrendously bad planning in the public relations department.

    By having so many non-interlocking agendas you have unwittingly confirmed the stereotypes that people assume are true because the media tells them this is what gun owners look like and the kinds of things that they all do.

    I would suggest strongly that you revisit your strategy making process and whittle your activity and message to ONE simple-to-understand thing- because the potpourri of guns, cameras, bulletproof vest, helmet, and this stake out for an alleged rapist topped off with signs emblazoned with internet meme is damaging to responsible and reasonable gun owners. I do not believe anyone dressed like a paint ball commando can be taken seriously and the fact that people are alarmed at this demonstration should not be surprising. I may be wasting my time in making this suggestion, but for those who intend on instigating media contact with any connection to the gun rights agenda, it is absolutely necessary to dress the part of a reasonable person in business attire. Suit, tie, appropriate shoes. Anything else is a economy pack of stupid our unique political climate.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    I would suggest strongly that you revisit your strategy making process and whittle your activity and message to ONE simple-to-understand thing- because the potpourri of guns, cameras, bulletproof vest, helmet, and this stake out for an alleged rapist topped off with signs emblazoned with internet meme is damaging to responsible and reasonable gun owners. I do not believe anyone dressed like a paint ball commando can be taken seriously and the fact that people are alarmed at this demonstration should not be surprising. I may be wasting my time in making this suggestion, but for those who intend on instigating media contact with any connection to the gun rights agenda, it is absolutely necessary to dress the part of a reasonable person in business attire. Suit, tie, appropriate shoes. Anything else is a economy pack of stupid our unique political climate.
    My activity and message respond to a business dispute that ensued in death threats against me and my family, in the wake of which my father got killed by an apartment fire that started in two places at once. I am saving my business attire for more reasonable circumstances. My purpose in this forum is to demonstrate lawful means of open gun carry within the scope of Constitutionally protected speech.

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    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
    http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
    Last edited by Michael Zeleny; 06-17-2012 at 02:29 AM.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    My activity and message respond to a business dispute that ensued in death threats against me and my family, in the wake of which my father got killed by an apartment fire that started in two places at once. I am saving my business attire for more reasonable circumstances. My purpose in this forum is to demonstrate lawful means of open gun carry within the scope of Constitutionally protected speech.

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    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
    http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
    So, the reinforcement of damaging gun owner stereotypes is completely intentional. That's helpful.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    So, the reinforcement of damaging gun owner stereotypes is completely intentional. That's helpful.
    If you mean the stereotypes that reserve inalienable rights "for me but not for thee", I'll take your word for it.

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    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
    http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    If you mean the stereotypes that reserve inalienable rights "for me but not for thee", I'll take your word for it.

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    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
    http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
    I think my meaning is perfectly clear in spite of your efforts to muddy it with the implication of hypocrisy. If one cannot see that playing dress up as a soldier (even in the context of a demonstration) does not promote the reasonableness and acceptance of those who advance gun rights in California, then they certainly cannot see the damage they do when they affirm the worst possible perceptions of second amendment supporters. This is a failure that I believe should be pointed out so our movement is not doomed to repeat it.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    I think my meaning is perfectly clear in spite of your efforts to muddy it with the implication of hypocrisy. If one cannot see that playing dress up as a soldier (even in the context of a demonstration) does not promote the reasonableness and acceptance of those who advance gun rights in California, then they certainly cannot see the damage they do when they affirm the worst possible perceptions of second amendment supporters. This is a failure that I believe should be pointed out so our movement is not doomed to repeat it.
    Your pleas for political correctness are wasted on one who fled from the USSR in order to deny the progressive pluralities the opportunity to speak on his behalf, in the furtherance of the principle of speaking only for himself.

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    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
    http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    Your pleas for political correctness are wasted on one who fled from the USSR in order to deny the progressive pluralities the opportunity to speak on his behalf, in the furtherance of the principle of speaking only for himself.
    And when unloaded long gun carry is banned next year, and the wearing of body armor in public the next year how will you reverse that? Oh, you won't, it will be left up to others to attempt to reverse that which you assisted, albeit unwittingly, to create.

    I appreciate you zeal to stand against that which is wrong gained through your soviet experiences, but other techniques will get us where we need to be rather then dancing to the other sides pre-choreographed legislative play book.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    Your pleas for political correctness are wasted on one who fled from the USSR in order to deny the progressive pluralities the opportunity to speak on his behalf, in the furtherance of the principle of speaking only for himself.

    --
    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
    http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
    Then this will continue to fall upon deaf ears, not because you are incapable of hearing, but unwilling. There are ways to participate in this activity that does not enflame our opposition and burn other freedom loving people. What you have choosen to do is not it. I have long advocated carrying handguns openly - there is nothing policitally correct about it - but I know the difference between that and what amounts to political arson. What you burn down today is extraordinarily difficult to restore in the future, if it can be restored at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    And when unloaded long gun carry is banned next year, and the wearing of body armor in public the next year how will you reverse that? Oh, you won't, it will be left up to others to attempt to reverse that which you assisted, albeit unwittingly, to create.

    I appreciate you zeal to stand against that which is wrong gained through your soviet experiences, but other techniques will get us where we need to be rather then dancing to the other sides pre-choreographed legislative play book.
    Damn Cato, how is life under that rock?
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    And when unloaded long gun carry is banned next year, and the wearing of body armor in public the next year how will you reverse that? Oh, you won't, it will be left up to others to attempt to reverse that which you assisted, albeit unwittingly, to create.

    I appreciate you zeal to stand against that which is wrong gained through your soviet experiences, but other techniques will get us where we need to be rather then dancing to the other sides pre-choreographed legislative play book.
    I take your point: my rights to speak freely and to keep and bear arms are not to be exercised in the face of my adversaries. I respectfully disagree. My issue is with whatever I must do wherever I need to be, within the scope of my fundamental rights. I leave all ensuing collective concerns to more politically minded citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Then this will continue to fall upon deaf ears, not because you are incapable of hearing, but unwilling.
    The last time I armed and armored myself to protest against venture capitalists knowingly funding a violent incestuous child molester, a pretty girl came by with kind words of support and a drink of water. It seems that some of my neighbors are more attuned to my message than self-proclaimed supporters of their fundamental rights.

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    Now that we got past the goose-stepping advocacy, I will elaborate the technical issues. Any European style "clamshell" holster will do the trick. The standard German Luger holster is a fine example. I am not especially fond of the Luger as a primary sidearm, but the LP08 Artillery variant makes a surgically accurate carbine, with the added benefit of ensuring reliability by harnessing more of the recoil impulse whilst slowing down its cycle. Regrettably, the holster stock of the far more effective C96 Mauser, my grandfather's favorite in the Civil War, fails to satisfy P.C. 12026.1, as a container that can be readily secured, but which is not fully enclosed, exposing over half of the "broomhandle". I have considered covering this nub with a condom, but settled on a yarmulke design currently under development.

    The holster displayed above contains a SIG P210-6HF delivered on 26 February 1975, my 18th birthday. In celebration of its debut in my performances, I hereby extend my annual Swiss gun sale, as announced here. Combat veterans and active duty military and law enforcement personnel will receive a 10% discount from the listed prices, as will any California resident who promises to use the gun for locked unloaded open carry in the foregoing fashion. This offer will remain open for a week, till Monday, 25 June 2012.
    Last edited by Michael Zeleny; 06-18-2012 at 03:55 AM.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I have to say, I am SO GLAD, I live in Michigan, and not California. Speaking as a gun owner that is, licensed to carry and all.
    Big Gay Al
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    According to Penal Code Section 26389: "Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying of an unloaded handgun if the handgun is carried either in the locked trunk of a motor vehicle or in a locked container." Whereas Penal Code Section 12026.1 defines a locked container as "a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock; combination lock, or similar locking device."
    Nice picture!

    Since the law allows for "similar locking device," it appears the intent is that the owner could access it but no one else could. In that case, what's stopping people from using a "ring key," i.e. a ring that allows it to be unlocked in half a second while present, but not at all if the ring is more than a few inches away?
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Nice picture!

    Since the law allows for "similar locking device," it appears the intent is that the owner could access it but no one else could. In that case, what's stopping people from using a "ring key," i.e. a ring that allows it to be unlocked in half a second while present, but not at all if the ring is more than a few inches away?
    The costs of serving as a test case can be prohibitive. The rig I illustrated satisfies the letter of the law. In an emergency, one can always break off the locking device, though care must be taken to make it secure enough for ordinary carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    The costs of serving as a test case can be prohibitive. The rig I illustrated satisfies the letter of the law. In an emergency, one can always break off the locking device, though care must be taken to make it secure enough for ordinary carry.

    The LA criminal courts will accept your challenge and with 100% certainty will find your 'fully enclosed locked container' is not a fully enclosed locked container within the meaning of the statute. A reasonable person would agree with you. A LA criminal court judge is not a reasonable person and will accept the district attorney's interpretation and not yours since there is no case law on the former 12026 exemption to the statute formally known as 12025.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post



    Damn Cato, how is life under that rock?
    Got tired of hearding cats. And I'm working nights. And I miss OCing. Have to plan a trip to Shasta Co (where I won't get recognized). The branding iron still in loaded open territory?
    Last edited by cato; 06-24-2012 at 08:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    one can always break off the locking device
    Never post info usefull to your own potential prosecution. Now it doesn't sound like a very secure container.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Never post info usefull to your own potential prosecution. Now it doesn't sound like a very secure container.
    I use pliers to wind heavy gauge steel wire around the strap retainer stud. My front door is no less securely locked for being subject to kicking wide open by jack-booted thugs. Likewise, mutatis mutandis, this locked container.
    Last edited by Michael Zeleny; 06-24-2012 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Got tired of hearding cats. And I'm working nights. And I miss OCing. Have to plan a trip to Shasta Co (where I won't get recognized). The branding iron still in loaded open territory?
    Yes. That it is.

    And due to a certain impasse, I might be convinced to buy lunch (particularly if it results in significant irritation and dissatisfaction for a certain paunchy statist authoritarian).
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    A LA criminal court judge is not a reasonable person and will accept the district attorney's interpretation and not yours since there is no case law on the former 12026 exemption to the statute formally known as 12025.
    Having beat three criminal indictments of unlawful weapon carry, I hold Los Angeles criminal court judges in high regard. How much legal experience warrants your opinion of their nature and performance?

  22. #22
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    Having beat three criminal indictments of unlawful weapon carry, I hold Los Angeles criminal court judges in high regard. How much legal experience warrants your opinion of their nature and performance?
    Kitty,

    Sometimes you have to ask yourself where people come from and what they do before questioning the advice they offer. You will find that some of the people you encounter, even on the internet, know more on a subject from the inside out than many have seen on the outside looking in.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Kitty,

    Sometimes you have to ask yourself where people come from and what they do before questioning the advice they offer. You will find that some of the people you encounter, even on the internet, know more on a subject from the inside out than many have seen on the outside looking in.
    Don't sulk for want of my appreciation, snookums. Over the past eleven years, I have withstood adversaries worth 11 billion dollars and counting, in reliance on advice from my excellent friends and lawyers, Michael Pinnisi and David Affeld. More generally, a lifetime of standing up to money and power has taught me to disregard pseudonymous well-wishers. Sell your inside dope to someone who cares.

  24. #24
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Got tired of hearding cats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny View Post
    Don't sulk for want of my appreciation, snookums. Over the past eleven years, I have withstood adversaries worth 11 billion dollars and counting, in reliance on advice from my excellent friends and lawyers, Michael Pinnisi and David Affeld. More generally, a lifetime of standing up to money and power has taught me to disregard pseudonymous well-wishers. Sell your inside dope to someone who cares.
    'Kitten' is a reference to my compatriots complaint, of which you seem to be a textbook example (only dwarfed in stature by Nichols). I am developing a concern that few, if any of your contributions here are going to be relevant to open carry. So far, I think it's a score of 11 off-topic posts and zero 'open carry' discussion. I wont hold my breath waiting for you stop posturing and post something relvant to the OC community.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    'Kitten' is a reference to my compatriots complaint, of which you seem to be a textbook example (only dwarfed in stature by Nichols). I am developing a concern that few, if any of your contributions here are going to be relevant to open carry. So far, I think it's a score of 11 off-topic posts and zero 'open carry' discussion. I wont hold my breath waiting for you stop posturing and post something relvant to the OC community.
    Please refer to my first post in this thread, demonstrating a legal way to carry openly a holstered handgun.

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