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Thread: Good encounter with LEO

  1. #1
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    Good encounter with LEO

    I was at Starbucks on Chandler Blvd. today OC'ing my Sig P-220 when one of the employees approached me and said that someone had called the police. Ten minutes later the same employee came back and said they were trying to cancel the call. About 10 minutes later a police officer came by and asked me to step outside. there he checked my SC DL and CWP. He had no problem with me carrying but he could understand since the shouting in Seattle that it was prudent to check one someone open carrying. He was really cool and we talked mostly about my job as chemist and that he had also lived through a hurricane. As were talking, he got the call to cancel the visit.

    All in all a good experience the LEO, just surprised that some called police on an OC in Arizona.
    Last edited by gunslinger493; 06-16-2012 at 03:08 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Isn't AZ "constitutional carry"? And what is a "SC".

    I don't really view that as a good encounter, he had no RAS you had, were or were going to commit a crime, hence no authority to "ID" you. Sorry but I will not play the "PAPERS!!! You vill show your identity papers" game with anyone!

  3. #3
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Sorry that happened to you but it was a bit of a fail and not a 'good encounter'.

    1. You consented to stepping outside absent reasonable and articulable cause that you had committed a crime.
    2. You produced a DL when on foot in a state with no 'stop and ID, papers please' law. This trains the officer that he can ignore the 2nd and 4th Amendment.
    3. You produced your permit when OC-ing, also not required.
    4. You were (presumably) not running a recorder so there is no proof of what happened.

    Yes, it ended peacefully, but you also gave up the rights that many OC-er are trying to uphold.

    Always run an audio and/or video recorder, never show DL if on foot, ask the officer why you are being detained and if he says you're not, tell him you do not consent to an interview absent RAS
    Always know the laws about 1-2 party recording
    Always know the necessity in your state for producing your permit (if you have a concealed firearm with you).

    Good luck.
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    I guess I am still new at this. SC = South Carolina. What is RAS?

  5. #5
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunslinger493 View Post
    I guess I am still new at this. SC = South Carolina. What is RAS?
    In your original post you said "he checked my SC DL and CWP" So you have a South Carolina DL?

    RAS=Reasonable Articulable Suspicion

    Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard of proof in United States law that is less than probable cause, the legal standard for arrests and warrants, but more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch' ";[1] it must be based on "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts".[2] Police may briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; such a detention is known as a Terry stop. If police additionally have reasonable suspicion that a person so detained may be armed, they may "frisk" the person for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard,[3] in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; it depends upon the totality of circumstances, and can result from a combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous.
    LEO can not just walk up to someone and demand "PAPERS!!! You vill show your identity papers". (sorry old WWII movie gestapo reference) they have to be able to state specifically what you were doing to cause them to suspect you were involved illegality before they can demand ID.

    The LEO in your original post may have been friendly, which makes him a friendly gestapo agent.
    Last edited by F350; 06-16-2012 at 04:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    In your original post you said "he checked my SC DL and CWP" So you have a South Carolina DL?

    RAS=Reasonable Articulable Suspicion



    LEO can not just walk up to someone and demand "PAPERS!!! You vill show your identity papers". (sorry old WWII movie gestapo reference) they have to be able to state specifically what you were doing to cause them to suspect you were involved illegality before they can demand ID.

    The LEO in your original post may have been friendly, which makes him a friendly gestapo agent.
    I would add just one word to your statement. It would be "legally" and insert it just after "can not". Nothing in the world prevents the LEO from ASKING for anything. He cannot LEGALLY demand without RAS at a minimum.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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  7. #7
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Others have already pointed out that while he was a polite officer, he was still infringing your rights (which you appear to have given up gladly; your choice, but it makes things harder on the next person who won't).
    Quote Originally Posted by gunslinger493
    I was at Starbucks on Chandler Blvd. ... one of the employees approached me and said that someone had called the police.
    If it was an employee who called, that person will be out of a job.
    Starbuck's is a welcoming company.
    Once you have the audio of the call (& maybe the paperwork), if it was an employee contact the manager. Maybe corporate.

    since the shooting in Seattle that it was prudent to check on someone open carrying.
    If he's going to waste time on that in AZ, he's not going to get anything else done the whole shift, & neither will anyone else in law enforcement.
    How many criminals have you ever heard of who carry openly into a "job"?
    In fact, the FBI says that criminals don't carry openly & practically never use holsters.
    This from interviews with felons in federal prisons.
    The study [AUG06] is titled "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers". Here's a page with links to PDFs of the study (in chapters). IIRC, it's chapter 4 where they conclude that criminals don't OC.

    surprised that some called police on an OC in Arizona.
    Surprised they responded. Hope you got the guy's name & agency, to do a FOIA/ORR, then write a politely-worded letter of complaint to the head of the agency.
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    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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  8. #8
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    It was not a Starbucks employee that called , it was a customer. One of the employees came up to me informed that a customer had called the police. After about ten minutes after the same employee had came and said that they had called the police to try to cancel the original call, but by then it was too late and ten minutes later the cop showed up.

  9. #9
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    Just like the others have pointed out, you did not need to show your papers, or even identify yourself, if the officer did not have RAS to detain you. Unless he had RAS, he had no reason to demand you to identify yourself.

    Even if the officer had RAS, your SC DL and CWP have nothing to do with any activity that you were doing, therefore they were not relevant. I take it you were not driving and doing anything that requires a permit to carry a firearm (since no permit is generally required to carry a firearm in AZ).

    AZ has a "stop and ID" statute. If an officer has RAS to detain you, you only need to identify yourself by stating your full name, you are not required to supply physical ID.
    http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....13&DocType=ARS

    It sounds like the officer took advantage of your ignorance of the law, as he had no RAS. It seems like you voluntarily gave up your identification and other information to the government when it wasn't required.

    Good phrases to research:
    "Am I being detained? Am I free to go."
    "Why am I being detained?"
    "What is your reasonable articulable suspicion that I have committed, am committing or about to commit a crime?"

    Also, this is a good video that is somewhat relevant:


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    Thanks for the information everyone. I am new to open carry and will know what to do next time.

  11. #11
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunslinger493 View Post
    Thanks for the information everyone. I am new to open carry and will know what to do next time.
    Before you go off 'half-cocked' all set to follow the advice on OCDO, here's a thought.

    1. Next time you OC in an unfamiliar location, try to go with an experienced OC-er. Going in pairs, going with someone who has knowledge of 2A rights and encounters with LEOs is a good idea.
    2. Get a recorder (Olympia with a USB port) and run it the entire time you are OC-ing outside the home but be sure you know the laws involving 1&2 party recording
    3. Get a copy of the applicable laws, learn them, carry them with you.

    If a LEO asks you to do something 'Can you come outside and discuss this'. Say in a respectful tone 'Officer, am I required by law to do this? I'd like to decline consensual contact as I am busy'. Follow with 'Why am I being detained'. If the LEO says you are not, say 'May I leave'. Running your recorder (either in the open or not obviously) provides proof if you should have to follow up with a lawsuit

    Have legal retainer on speed dial if you are in a non OC-ing friendly location/city (iow, it's legal but not frequently seen), and do not try to try the case on the street. Do not resist, but clearly state you do not give permission, but will not resist.

    Finally, play it by ear. For example, if you are OC-ing and you spy someone mean-mugging you and getting out their cell-phone, it's better to leave calmly than to wait for cops to show up, or to argue with someone and have them call the cops. Go eat/play/buy somewhere else where OC-ing is accepted. Did I mention going out with an OC-ing partner?

    Most of the time, depending on state you're in, nothing happens.
    Last edited by sawah; 06-16-2012 at 10:34 PM.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member Super Saiyan's Avatar
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    This happened in Arizona? That's...strange... Few here hardly ever even bat an eye, let alone call the police. Must've been someone from out-of-town who was completely ignorant of Arizona's gun laws, or lack thereof.
    Last edited by Super Saiyan; 06-19-2012 at 04:33 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    If the starbucks employee advised you of the call and attempted to cancel it I assume you did nothing to draw extra attention to your self. But I still have to ask, was there something other than your gun that made you stand out?

    I mean, I've open carried in a buffet (several plates of food so the gun was visible on multiple occasions) full of snowbirds with a scraggly beard and not gotten a second glance. This is AZ!

    Like said above, don't talk to the police.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Has anyone else noticed that it took about 20 minutes for the cops to respond to a MWAG call, and when they did they 1) did not arrive lights & sirens blaring, 2) did not show up in force, and 3) did not shoot anybody's pet dog?

    OK, that last one was a cheap shot. Even I know the difference between Arizona and Maryland.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    RAS isn't a consideration in this encounter.

    The officer responded to a specific MWAG 911 call for service dispatch. Odd for AZ, but some of these city cops come from elsewhere. There's no telling what info was relayed to the officer by the dispatcher or the actual veracity of the original complainant's call to 911. The call was obviously from an anti... and they lie like thieves. No cop knows what the real situation is 'til they get there.

    I suspect the police dispatcher relayed something unusual. The 'step outside' part was for your privacy and his safety. The document check was unneccessary. Was it volunteered or did the cop ask for it?

    "He had no problem with me carrying but he could understand since the shooting in Seattle http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/crim...federal/nGMY9/ that it was prudent to check one someone open carrying". No... I have to disagree with that entirely. Entirely different dynamic.

    Excused the paranoia of some others posting here... they don't live in AZ and have no experience with the actual dynamic of the state regarding firearms compared to their own 'fairly recent and still culturally unaccepted' experiences.
    Last edited by Sonora Rebel; 06-19-2012 at 11:28 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    OCer in a Starbucks.....nothing new there. Especially in AZ. Or, is Phoenix somewhat different than the rest of the state where LE is concerned.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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  17. #17
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    OCer in a Starbucks.....nothing new there. Especially in AZ. Or, is Phoenix somewhat different than the rest of the state where LE is concerned.
    No, OC'ing outside the courthouse downtown (waiting for it to open) has garnerned me a passing glance from police and other's waiting to enter but that's it. No, "Oh my God, he's got a gun!" or "Sir, can we talk to you for a second".

    I hate to admit it but I was probably more nervous than anyone else when it came time to surrender my weapon (lock box at the courthouse) because I don't like to handle it unnecessarily.

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    Thanks for your post and efforts

    Quote Originally Posted by gunslinger493 View Post
    Thanks for the information everyone. I am new to open carry and will know what to do next time.
    You do not have to be perfect. You did far more good than harm. Cooperating with the police is not detestable, as long as they know that you do not have to do so.

    I think a good policy is to educate the police about your rights. Once they acknowlege your rights, you can work with them if you like. We need to bring the police to us. They are our natural ally once they are educated. I have seen it happen numerous times.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TOF's Avatar
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    I have OC'd off and on for 50+ years in Arizona and never been hassled in any way. This incident may have occurred in Arizona but it is an extremely rare occurrence here. I really don't think we all need to rush out and purchase audio/video recorders quite yet.
    If you woke up breathing, congratulations! You get another chance.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    I have OC'd off and on for 50+ years in Arizona and never been hassled in any way. This incident may have occurred in Arizona but it is an extremely rare occurrence here. I really don't think we all need to rush out and purchase audio/video recorders quite yet.
    "Same here... since '66. I've never even been asked about any of my pistols by any LEO... other than type and bore size. AZ LEO's like .45's I've found...

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Good encounter with LEO

    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    I have OC'd off and on for 50+ years in Arizona and never been hassled in any way. This incident may have occurred in Arizona but it is an extremely rare occurrence here. I really don't think we all need to rush out and purchase audio/video recorders quite yet.
    Not to downgrade your sense of well being, but this is kind of like saying: I have never been in a car crash so I do not need auto insurance. Or my home has never had a fire occur, so no need for fire insurance.

    I used to feel the same way a few years ago. Now I carry covert audio & video equipment when I OC. Most police and people for that matter are good. One never knows when they my face the other 10% (guess) of people who want ill for us in some way or form. OCing is a provocative act in the eyes of some. That being the case, and also knowing that there are some just plain crazy folks running around out there, it is prudent to carry as much insurance against falsehoods as possible.

    Let's say it is in the evening and you run upto the market for some milk. While in the store some lady keeps giving you the evil eye, you just ignore her and make your purchase and go. On your way home you are pulled over and arrested! Why? The lady says you threatened her and drew your pistol on her for no reason. Without a recorder or video running who do you think they are going to believe? This is fiction based on a true account.The OCer is currently serving time in a state prison for felonious assult.

    Bad things can and do happen to good people. Why not carry as much protection as possible? Isn't that why we carry in the first place?

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 08-27-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    I have OC'd off and on for 50+ years in Arizona and never been hassled in any way. This incident may have occurred in Arizona but it is an extremely rare occurrence here. I really don't think we all need to rush out and purchase audio/video recorders quite yet.
    I've got to agree with Glock... I've never been harassed either, but a short trip down internet-search lane will tell you it's a good idea to keep that recorder going.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    "Same here... since '66. I've never even been asked about any of my pistols by any LEO... other than type and bore size. AZ LEO's like .45's I've found...
    Same here. Out of state posters are clueless about how Arizona LEO treat OC.

    911 call on OP MWAG probably was made by a Kommyfolrynia weepy eyed liberal.

  24. #24
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    That is what I have noticed here too, that out of state posters had more to say than folks from AZ. Also the officer was from Florida. A native officer would have just chatted with me for a few minutes and left. He may even have tried to find the caller and explain the facts to him.
    Last edited by gunslinger493; 08-31-2012 at 01:30 AM.
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  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Good encounter with LEO

    Quote Originally Posted by gunslinger493 View Post
    That is what I have noticed here too, that out of state posters had more to say than folks from AZ. Also the officer was from Florida. A native officer would have just chatted with me for a few minutes and left. He may even have tried to find the caller and explain the facts to him.
    While people from AZ maybe more used to seeing weapons - that in no way means one should take for granted that any encounter will be a: positive or trurhful one. I have spent two weeks in the greater phoenix area. To date I am the only person I have seen OC? I stopped in several rual areas on my way here, guess what - no OC observed there also? As for native AZ residents, aren't most people in this state transplants in some way or form?

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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