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Thread: It Looked Like I'd Have No Choice but... Shoot to Kill!

  1. #1
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    It Looked Like I'd Have No Choice but... Shoot to Kill!

    Howdy Folks!
    What started out as a really delightful day ended with an incident that looked like I'd be forced to shoot to kill!

    We left home this morning around 8am, and already running a couple of hours tardy to meet LoneEchoWolf down in Alamosa.
    But we headed south in the Jeep and made terrific time until we got to Colorado Springs. I decided I should stop and talk with the folks who run the place about our planned OC Meet and Greet next Saturday. They were most helpful and we're set for our meet at 2:00pm, but that's another thread.
    With that bit of business out of the way, my wife and I took on sustenance at Starbucks and got back on the road.

    We stopped in Walsenburg to eliminate the coffee we'd consumed from Starbucks, and let Gator get out and stretch his legs, which don't actually.
    Anyhow, we chatted cordially with some folks at the rest-stop before moving on through Walsenburg and onto 160 westbound.
    Aside from being real tardy, we soon crossed the summit of LaVeta Pass and rolled through Fort Garland. Soon enough we were looking at Blanca in the rear view mirrors and closing in on Alamosa.

    Once we finally regained use of our cellular phones (not too darn many towers east of Mosa) I sent a text message to LoneEchoWolf in order to let him know we'd be partaking of the world class cuisine found at McDonalds. He was already there when we arrived, and sporting his Glock 17 9mm. He had a friend along with him, but he was unarmed. LoneEchoWolf immediately recognized the RIA 1911 on my hip from the photo I posted on this forum. Besides, wasn't anybody else OC'ing there except him and me, so it was pretty easy for us to figure out who we each were looking for!

    After getting our order, we decided to eat outside in the warm sunshins of a San Luis Valley day, and enjoyed some lively conversation that covered everything from Guns to OC to issues about cops, and a whole bunch more. Once our simple repast was consumed and the area tidied up, LoneEchoWolf's friend left us and he joined us as we boarded the Jeep and headed out to the Great Sand Dunes National Monument. We visited the gift shop/welcome center, and had to disarm while inside, and we noted they had a sticker on the front door illustrating that firearms were not received warmly there. After doing a bit of looking around, and parting with about 30 bucks, we climbed back into the Jeep and heaed through the park. I shot some photos and we all marvelled at some of those folks who climbed all the way to the top of the dunes. They are a whole lot higher than you'd think. We then travelled part of a 4 wheel drive road, but didn't go too far on that one.

    Once we got back to Mosa, LoneEchoWolf joined us as we shopped at a local Safeway. It was the first time our companion had OC'ed in there, so it was new for him. Anyhow, we dropped him off and parted company with a promise we'd be back soon as possible to enjoy another visit with him. He is a really likable young man of about 25years of age, bright and a really nice fellow.

    The wife and I along with Gator headed back north intending to travel home by a different route. So we headed off in the direction of Fairplay, but decided to go east on 24 toward Colorado Springs just south of Buena Vista. Before long we were racing across the South Park hitting like 80 mph through there. The thing about South Park is.... there ain't much of anything out there, and few people on the roads.

    Once we reached the summit of Wilkerson Pass, we stopped at a rest area to use the facilities and take some more photos.

    At this point, I'm going to shorten the story because this has gotten really much longer than intended.

    After passing through Lake George, Florissant and Divide, we found ourselves in an incident that got ugly really fast. It looked seriously as if an accident was brewing, and somebody was likely to be seriously injured or killed. My only possible response was to observe the scene unfolding before me, and anticipate the next move. I was certain, based on the facts at the time, that I'd end up needing to draw my firearm with intent to eliminate a threat by shooting to kill. You know how bad that can be. Explaining to the cops why I shot, violating the whole "no discharge of a firearm within the city limits of Woodland Park", all those questions they'd be determined to ask, and me trying to explain that I was there and on the scene with the ability to shoot, while they were.... well... who knows where.

    So I'll process the photos tomorrow (probably) and get those up for ya'll to see.

    Anyhow, as I mentioned, this is getting really long, and I should fetch in the camera to download the photos I took today of our new friend LoneEchoWolf and get my Irish bum to bed because this Irish bum has a day job to manage in the morning, and I'm plumb wore out!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  2. #2
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    hmmm. Seems like you left the meat out the story sandwich.

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    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    Was a Awesome time for sure and looking forward to many more hopefully. Glad you made it home safely except for the incident in woodland park and glad that you were not forced to draw and make one of the biggest choices you may be forced to make. Thanks for all the education and great time, always nice to learn from one of the best! As i said before Love the new 1911 and cant wait to see all the fun stuff you are able to do to it to make it all "yours." Hopefully next time we have Ear protection and it isnt so windy and nasty out and we can put in some good range time. And i know that you left that Park Ranger with alot to think about lol. I was there and you still managed to suck me into the story nice writeing as always! Thanks again for everything was a blast!

  4. #4
    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    hmmm. Seems like you left the meat out the story sandwich.
    Just leaves room for the After story sunday!

  5. #5
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Can't wait. I find myself looking forward to reading M-Taliesin's posts when I see he posted something new!

  6. #6
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Again Folks!
    So we came at Woodland Park from the west on our return from Alamosa. As you approach the town, you come around a fair sized curve in the road, then somewhat downhill into the town. It was getting on toward dusk as we noticed something really odd going on in the westbound lanes. Because it seemed odd, I slowed the Jeep down even more than required by the speed limit. This piece of road has 2 lanes westbound with another 2 lanes eastbound with a maybe 4 foot concrete barrier wall between the eastbound and westbound lanes. Because the jeep rides a bit high, we could see the cars over the wall on the westbound side were not moving, or moving extremely slowly. I wondered what on earth was going on over there. In fact, I inquired to my wife saying, "I wonder what on earth is going on over there?"

    He suddenly bolted over the wall, not 3 yards ahead of me. My wife cried out "Oh, dear!" He just came over the wall and landed in the lane to my left and stumbled as he hit pavement. He looked right at me as I brought the Jeep to a full stop, with plenty of traffic closing fast on my rear bumper. He could see me and it was obvious that he thought about jumping back over the wall to the westbound lanes again, which would most certainly have triggered an accident. I glanced over and could see cars now moving over there and if he had jumped back over the wall, he might have landed on somebody's car or maybe hit pavement on the other side just in time to get hit by another car. He looked at me and I waved my right hand from left to right to indicate I was giving him the right of way to cross the eastbound lanes. Other folks travelling east had all stopped behind me, so he had a clear path to make good his escape. Once across to safety, he looked back, as if believing he would be followed. We drove forward and moved away from the scene.

    It occured to me that things might have gone differently and I might have been required to shoot.

    If he'd gotten hit or severely injured, I had the means to stop his suffering right on the spot. If he had broken a leg or been struck, I was equipped to fire that fatal shot. But that raised a whole passle of questions.

    If I shot him, to terminate his suffering after becoming badly injured, what might the reaction of local law enforcement be? I was there. I don't know where the police would have to come from, but I was already on the scene and could resolve the problem immediately. But it would require that I fire a kill shot. What about shooting while inside city limits? What about the clear and present danger if he kept leaping that wall from one side of the highway to the other? What if he jumped the wall and crashed through somebody's windshield? Could that not kill some innocent citizen? Should I shoot him dead to prevent him from the very likely possibility of causing an accident that could end up all tragic and such?

    The immediate problem resolved itself as we drove away. My wife glanced back and he looked at her with that "What are you looking at?" sort of attitude before he shifted his attention as if still looking to be joined by his companion. Whether he acted alone, or another was trying to come across, we will never know. We just cleared the area and headed on toward Colorado Springs. But I now ponder the questions about the circumstances of shooting, whether justified in the situation, and the rammifcations if I had decided to shoot to kill.

    I learned later that my wife didn't cry out "Oh dear" as a reference to me, but the deer that suddenly (and unexpectedly) appeared over that wall.

    If it had gotten injured and was suffering, should I have shot it?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    Ive wondered myself about the reactions some of the LEO could give in that situation, honestly i think if you had to end its suffering and your the only one on scene that you should indeed help and end its suffering. but who knows what the Game and wildlife and LEO's would say or want to charge with. I know hitting a animal of good size then leaving it on the roadway without notifying G&W could result in a fine or ticket, this should be a subject that they have covered clearly so we all know how to take legal action if necessary. Glad again you both are safe and made it alright.

    ~Wolf~
    Semper-Fi

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    Regular Member 1Grizzly1's Avatar
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    That would be a tough decision to make. Not only could you be prosecuted for discharging your firearm in city limits, some states would allow you to be prosecuted for poaching. Glad it all worked out well.

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    There are other more effective ways to dispatch an injured animal than a sidearm with fewer questions. BFK comes to mind.

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    If you are within 50' of the center line of a road you are breaking the law by shooting the animal. In that case, your best bet is to call 911 and have them send a officer or a member of CDOW to finish off the animal. Further than 50' you can do it yourself but you need to a get a Roadkill Permit, especially if you plan on taking the meat yourself. Make sure you document the animal's wounds (camera, keeping the broken leg, etc.) in case the CDOW wants proof. You have 48 hours after you make the kill to get the permit and, at least up here in the mountains, the local police usually have them in their cruiser.

    IANAL but my advice would to always call the authorities first and ask them how to proceed.

    This actually happened to me. As I was driving home from the range, a car in front of me hit a deer in between Avon and Edwards in the Vail Valley. Not exactly the boonies. Both rear legs were obviously crushed and the animal was in pain about 20' off the road when I stopped. Fearing getting in trouble for firing in a populated area, I called 911 and told them I was armed and could put the deer down if needed. "No,no,no!" replied the dispatcher, "That will get you fined at the very least. I'll send an officer right out."

    The officer arrived within 5 minutes with lights and siren on, gets out of the car, walks towards the deer, and starts to draw his sidearm. I say,"Hey, wait! You want something a little more substantial to put him down with, it might take several shots with your pistol. Here, I've got a rifle in the jeep." Having just been to the range I pull out my AR-15, make sure it's cleared, and hand him the rifle and full mag. Needless to say, the officer was a bit nonplussed at first but went ahead and did what he needed to do.

    The funny thing, as he was shooting the deer I noticed a couple of cars slow down and take pictures. It's amusing because my AR at the time was tricked out with all the bells-and-whistles, I may even have had an espresso machine hanging off of it, and I could just see one of those pictures in the next days paper with the heading, "Jack-Booted Thug Kills Bambi!"

    Any-hoo, that's how I came to look up the laws on roadkill and such.
    Last edited by Brass; 06-17-2012 at 06:31 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    There are other more effective ways to dispatch an injured animal than a sidearm with fewer questions. BFK comes to mind.
    Howdy Mahkagari!
    Trouble is, I didn't have a BFK.

    Onboard we had:
    1 Fujifilm 10mpx digital camera.
    1 Judge .410/.45 long Colt
    1 RIA 1911 .45 ACP
    1 Ruger P94, .40 cal
    1 Springfield XDm .40 cal
    1 Walther PK .380

    But no BFK.

    Obviously, the Walther would have been a brutal means of dispatch.
    The .40s not much better.
    .45 acp or .45 long Colt the better choices available.

    BFK, animal suffers while bleeding out.
    .45 round nearly instantaneous.

    Besides, a BFK can get a guy in more trouble (blade length exceeding 3") than a gun!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  12. #12
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass View Post
    Any-hoo, that's how I came to look up the laws on roadkill and such.
    Howdy Brass!
    Thanks for the information. I actually hadn't considered the scenario until it suddenly became a real obvious danger to motorists on the highway.
    I didn't even think about dispatching bambi until we were several miles down the road, and I started to ponder what I might have done if things went badly.

    Anyhow, I disagree with what the cops told you, because that just let the poor animal suffer for another 5 minutes before taking care of it.
    All the while, you were right there and capable of doing something for the critter on humanitarian grounds.

    Still, better to have the authorities handle the matter and keep your own skin out of jail.

    Sage advice, my friend, and I've learned something new.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Mahkagari!

    Obviously, the Walther would have been a brutal means of dispatch.
    The .40s not much better.
    .45 acp or .45 long Colt the better choices available.

    BFK, animal suffers while bleeding out.
    .45 round nearly instantaneous.
    Belive it or not... .22LR is the most effective way to take down a cow, deer, horse, pronghorn etc that has been injured. Draw cross between antlers (or horns / ears) and eyes, 6-10" away 45 degree angle, shoot.. INSTANT - zero suffering..

    I found larger calibers actually make it worse for the animal. (this does NOT apply to hunting.. :P )

    The post advising against doing this yourself (to livestock you do not own) is dead on.. You can get a roadkill tag for 35.00 I believe as well.


    --Rob
    Last edited by Bellum_Intus; 06-17-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Mahkagari!
    Trouble is, I didn't have a BFK.

    Onboard we had:
    1 Fujifilm 10mpx digital camera.
    1 Judge .410/.45 long Colt
    1 RIA 1911 .45 ACP
    1 Ruger P94, .40 cal
    1 Springfield XDm .40 cal
    1 Walther PK .380

    But no BFK.
    HTF do you not have a BFK with all of that? You need something to clean your toenails. You're not using the PK for THAT are you??

    BFK, animal suffers while bleeding out.
    .45 round nearly instantaneous.
    If and only if you get an accurate brain shot as someone directed above. Otherwise, you blow off half their face. Bleeding out from cutting the trachea and carotid will put him down in seconds (hence while a shecitah is kosher and hunting is not). Missing the small brainpan in a large skull isn't any more humane, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Besides, a BFK can get a guy in more trouble (blade length exceeding 3") than a gun!
    Concealing or brandishing it, maybe. But BFK's don't "discharge". For that other story, depending on other details, maybe could have drug the animal another 30'. But hell, I've seen live stock dispatched easily with less than 3" of blade.

    For another story discussing humanely dispatching animals and crossing jursidictions:


    http://www.whybike.com/motorcycle34.htm

  15. #15
    Regular Member wmodavis's Avatar
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    Oh Deer! Glad you made it back without a trip to the hoosegow.
    Be safe from all attack animals.

  16. #16
    Regular Member nkunnen's Avatar
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    I put a deer down that hit a fence and broke its neck with a 30-30 rifle... maybe it was a little overkill....but it still tasted great....LOL
    Last edited by nkunnen; 06-18-2012 at 08:11 PM.

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    I have put some thought into this very situation. My folks live way out in the country and there are alot of deer strikes on vics in the area... Personally I always carry a knife on me...As an experienced hunter I have no problems going up to a wounded deer and slitting it's throat as I believe this is an effective and quick way to put it out of it's misery. Especially if I am inside city limits. However I am also not against shooting the animal if it is outside city limits and safe to do so. Though a .22LR is extremely effective to put a large animal down my .40 will work in a pinch I reckon. I am glad things worked out for you. But I would definitely suggest adding a decent folder to you EDC... Never know when you might need a good knife.

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