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Is the City of Kettering violating State Law (ORC 9.68)

JmE

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Just to make certain you are talking about the county commission saying the signs don't belong to them, not the county fair commission?

Yeah, it was one of the commissioner. We know each other casually and he did me a favor once many years ago. BTW: The county and city are just about broke. They can't afford another lawsuit right now. Might be similar in Kettering and other places in Ohio.
 

Brian D.

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For what it's worth OFCC went round and round and round with several counties about their fairgrounds and 'No guns' policies for a few years. (As memory serves much of that took place beofre ORC 9.68, statewide preemption, was the law of the land.) Anyhow some counties claim the fairgrounds are owned/operated privately, and are NOT public entities. (Following the money seemed to gretaly contradict many of those claims by the way.)

Just a little background as to the past, you would think with ORC 9.68 in place for a spell now these types of battles wouldn't still have to be fought. But alas city, township, and county parks are still being found with "fresh" gunbuster signage in place from time to time.
 

JmE

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Makarov, I hope that your letter will get them to change positions in Kettering. I'm anxious to read their reply.



For what it's worth OFCC went round and round and round with several counties about their fairgrounds and 'No guns' policies for a few years. (As memory serves much of that took place beofre ORC 9.68, statewide preemption, was the law of the land.) Anyhow some counties claim the fairgrounds are owned/operated privately, and are NOT public entities. (Following the money seemed to gretaly contradict many of those claims by the way.)

Yes, I remembered that. This fairground is owned by the county so it's public property. With the city park, I made one passing comment to an attorney friend of mine on the street one day and the sign was removed a few days later. It was early on and it surprised me that it was done just from a simple comment or perhaps he was already pushing the city to remove them anyway. I was hoping to get lucky again with this commissioner.

Just a little background as to the past, you would think with ORC 9.68 in place for a spell now these types of battles wouldn't still have to be fought. But alas city, township, and county parks are still being found with "fresh" gunbuster signage in place from time to time.

They're aware and he explained their preference in the private conversation. I really didn't like where he went with it. Basically, they aren't doing the typical thing one might think with it. I believe that if I send a solid letter well before the next fair giving them a final chance to remove the sign, they don't after a week, put it on the agenda for the next meeting and someone presents clear, concise evidence of their error; they are likely to remove the sign and post the buildings. But then again, I've been wrong many times before.

Thanks for the heads up and information.
 
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color of law

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Brian D can tell you that the Reading OH signs came down when I called the city solicitor. The police chief personally took them down.

Green Township (Hamilton County) on notice removed it from their posted rules.

Both Reading OH and Green Township police chiefs are pro gun.

And OFCC had no involvement in either one.

Most things in Hamilton County get resolved because of us residents, not some gun organization.
 
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JmE

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Brian D can tell you that the Reading OH signs came down when I called the city solicitor. The police chief personally took them down.

Green Township (Hamilton County) on notice removed it from their posted rules.

Both Reading OH and Green Township police chiefs are pro gun.

And OFCC had no involvement in either one.

Most things in Hamilton County get resolved because of us residents, not some gun organization.

If you are referring to the county fairground, agencies here like to toss things back and forth; pass the buck. The fairgrounds are within the city limits but the city, of course, would (rightly I assume) toss it back as a county matter, I suppose. If you mean the city thing, yeah, the attorney was with the city and I knew this attorney well for a fair number of years. The attorney is also pro-gun, pro-freedom in every aspect that I've found (we've always agreed on freedom matters regardless of how far from mainstream at the time -- that attorney had earned my respect long ago). The county sheriff is also pro-gun and pro-constitution; a smart and great guy.

I hope you didn't think that I meant to necessarily drag an organization in to do this. I was just gearing up to get this thing done, hopefully this season. If I felt better, I would have already taken care of it myself. When I'm not doing so well, one can see even my posts are scattered, unfocused, and wrong in details more often than would be my norm. My person to person communication skills take a hit when my health is poor too. Of course, I could always use any help one wished to give for a letter to the commissioners and for a presentation, if necessary, at a county commissioner's meeting. Of course, if someone else wanted to handle any of this I'd help in any way I could. When that time comes, I'll make a thread... or perhaps it has gone beyond that now and I'd be wise to start one after the picnic. I've drifted this thread off point far too much. I don't intend or want to do that.

As I can't always tell tone in my post, none of this is intended to be contrary, obstinate, argumentative, or anything of the sort. I'm in agreement with all that has been posted here and all that I've been posting about it has intended to be informative as to the situation and what has been attempted so far.

Thank you all for the work you have done and for that you may do in the future to further rights.

(Unintentional long posts by me... I really don't want to ramble! :D )
 

MyWifeSaidYes

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My opinion of OFCC dropped a little more when I found out on Monday that Liberty Park, in Delaware county (Liberty Township) still had anti-gun rules and signage.

This is the park where the OFCC holds it's annual Party in the Park.

Huh?

Mixed message?

I contacted that township Monday night and spoke with a parks director Tuesday morning. By Wednesday morning, they had an opinion (fact?) from their attorney that townships cannot regulate firearms.
ORC 504.04
(B) No resolution adopted pursuant to this chapter shall do any of the following:
(6) Establish regulations affecting hunting, trapping, fishing, or the possession, use, or sale of firearms;

The staff of the township is going to get this issue on the agenda for the next Board of Trustees meeting. That's on July 2. We'll see if that happens.

I hope I don't make the OFCC mad for taking away their ability to go "Nyah, nyah. We're not paying attention to your signnnnsss" when they have their party. That's the only reason I can fathom that they would let this go on for so long. This will be their 9th year for Party in the Park.
 

color of law

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MyWifeSaidYes, you are learning that these organization have no interest in your rights. In other words, the organizations beneficial interest is not necessarily in the best interest of the citizen.

I hope I don't make the OFCC mad for taking away their ability to go "Nyah, nyah. We're not paying attention to your signnnnsss" when they have their party. That's the only reason I can fathom that they would let this go on for so long. This will be their 9th year for Party in the Park.

They just may. After all, how dare you (peon individual) force a big and powerful city/village/township government to follow the law.

When private individuals accomplish and/or force these government entities to follow the law it denies the organization its believed right to grandstand and brag about there great power. And you need us because peons cannot fight city hall.

PS: see you at the peon organized picnic.....
 

Makarov

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The last few nights I have been trying to get pictures outside the Fraze but without success. It seems when the Fraze has an event, they block off roads surrounding the theater and do no allow anyone in unless they have tickets. They even post guards/employees at the bocked street entrances to check everyone for tickets. I manage to questioned one employee the other night. Heres the questions; If I was attending a concert where is the entrance? If I were to buy a ticket, where is the ticket window? Everything she said pointed to an outside activity without entering any building. I'll try this weekend for pictures.
 
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color of law

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Believe it or not, I have no problems with organizations that operate for the benefit of the rank and file. The problem is once the organization grows in size it looses its way and grows arrogant.

Example: One organization used open carry to get concealed carry laws. Once that was accomplished they threw the open carrier to the wolves. They only use open carry to push their concealed agenda.

The question is why are not these organizations fighting for constitutional carry??????
 

color of law

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The last few nights I have been trying to get pictures outside the Fraze but without success. It seems when the Fraze has an event, they block off roads surrounding the theater and do no allow anyone in unless they have tickets. They even post guards/employees at the bocked street entrances to check everyone for tickets. I manage to questioned one employee the other night. Heres the questions; If I was attending a concert where is the entrance? If I were to buy a ticket, where is the ticket window? Everything she said pointed to an outside activity without entering any building. I'll try this weekend for pictures.
No question this is a city operation.

http://www.fraze.com/ Go to bottom and click Employment

http://www.fraze.com/guest-services/employment/ Go to bottom and click download an application

http://www.fraze.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/pdf/Fraze_Application.pdf City of Kettering Application for Employment

You have to sign it like a tax return.

CERTIFICATION: I hereby certify that all the information I have provided on BOTH SIDES of this application form is true, complete and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief, and is made in good faith. I agree and understand that all statements made by me are subject to being investigated for verification. I further agree and understand that any misstatement of facts contained in this application may disqualify me for any employment or result in my removal from employment with the City of Kettering.
 

Brian D.

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My opinion of OFCC dropped a little more when I found out on Monday that Liberty Park, in Delaware county (Liberty Township) still had anti-gun rules and signage.

This is the park where the OFCC holds it's annual Party in the Park.

Huh?

Mixed message?

I contacted that township Monday night and spoke with a parks director Tuesday morning. By Wednesday morning, they had an opinion (fact?) from their attorney that townships cannot regulate firearms.


The staff of the township is going to get this issue on the agenda for the next Board of Trustees meeting. That's on July 2. We'll see if that happens.


Not to make excuses for OFCC or any other gun rights organization but a little more context about Liberty Park where OFCC holds their big Picnic:

I've made it to every one of them and there were indeed two or more years when ALL gunbuster signage had been removed. So, one starts to belive that the public officials involved finally got the message. But no, the signs show up again a year later, like the township trustees have some kind of recurrent amnesia.

It's like trying to discipline a misbehaving kid and all you're allowed to do is holler "No! Don't do that again or I'll yell NO again!" and maybe wag a finger at him.

Heck color of law I wouldn't put it past the city of Reading to repost that park next time they get a new police chief or law director. Same with the other places we've had "wins" in the past. ORC 9.68 needs way more teeth with regards to compliance/punitive measures, we all know that. Otherwise it's not so much a law as a suggestion from an Emily Post etiquette guide. Personally I've always felt like the OC marches and meetups had a more lasting effect, especially if you find a way to make the politicos look stupid, best case scenario right before an election.


See you two and hopefully several more at the Li'l Pic-a-nic tomorrow.

Brian
 

MyWifeSaidYes

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I would like to see created, a boilerplate 9.68 violation lawsuit.

Download and print. Fill in the blanks: court of jurisdiction, violating community name and info, location and description of violation, etc., and file it at the clerk of courts.

I am not a lawyer, so I wouldn't know if such a thing is possible. Could this be a 'small claims' issue?

Have there been, and if so, can I cet a copy of, any lawsuits based on ORC 9.68?

color of law might be able to tell me how silly this idea is, but I'm curious anyway.


As for the signs, laws, rules and regulations coming back after being removed:

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty—
power is ever stealing from the many to the few….

The hand entrusted with power becomes …
the necessary enemy of the people.

Only by continual oversight can the democrat
in office be prevented from hardening into a despot:

only by unintermitted Agitation can a people be
kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let
liberty be smothered in material prosperity.

WENDELL PHILLIPS, speech in Boston, Massachusetts, January 28, 1852


In moden terms: Smack 'em down. If they don't stay down, smack 'em again.
 
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Makarov

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Here are pictures I took after walking around the Fraze. It was interesting to find that everything is located outside for the spectator.
 

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MyWifeSaidYes

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If I can get someone to buy me a ticket to an event at the Fraze, I may just have to attend while open carrying.
 

color of law

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All carry-in items including appropriate sized bags/purses are subject to search. Be aware that added security measures may slow down entry so please allow sufficient time prior to your arrival.
Under what law do they think allows search without reasonable articulable suspicion?
 
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