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Thread: City of Lakewood is violation of State Law

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    Regular Member cpgrad08's Avatar
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    City of Lakewood is violation of State Law

    Lakewood Municipal Code 8.76.530 bans firearms in all parks under the cities control when this is a clear violation of RCW 9.41.290. I have emailed the city and waits for it's response
    I carry a Para Ordance 1911 .45 ACP.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    CODE

    08.76.530 - Firearms, Weapons
    No person except duly authorized law enforcement personnel and/or persons licensed to carry a concealed weapon shall possess a firearm in a city park. No person shall possess a bow and arrow, crossbow, or air or gas weapon in a City park. No person shall discharge across, in, or into any park area a firearm, bow and arrow, crossbow, air or gas weapon, or any device capable of injuring or killing any person or animal, or damaging or destroying any public or private property provided that where the Department for good cause has authorized and approved a special recreational activity or a recreational program, upon finding that it is not inconsistent with City park use, this section shall not apply. (Ord. 420 ? 1 (part), 2006; Ord. 126 ? 1 (part), 1997.)
    Correct, what is interesting is Lakewood's date is 1997, preemption is 1994.
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    I believe Buckley is also in violation. I go through there quite a bit so was curious and wanted to double-check:

    http://www.codepublishing.com/WA/Buc...html#10.84.185

    10.84.185 Firearms restriction.
    It is unlawful for any person except a law enforcement officer to have in his possession any firearm within any city park, or on any city parking lot, or within the city youth center, or upon the grounds of the youth center. Firearms are defined by RCW 9.41.010, which is incorporated by this reference as though set forth fully herein; provided, however, that a person who has been issued a valid license to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to BMC 10.40.040 may legally do so while utilizing any trail within the city. (Ord. 07-08 1, 2008).
    Where is the best place to start to attempt to remedy this?

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    I sent a letter off to the city administrator of Buckley and tried to be clear about how the ordinance is in conflict with Washington State's preemption statute. We'll see if that goes anywhere.

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    City Council. They are the only ones who can change city ordinances, short of a court decision. Or just act with the knowledge that these city ordinances are invalid, and don't worry about it.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muggins View Post
    I believe Buckley is also in violation. I go through there quite a bit so was curious and wanted to double-check:

    http://www.codepublishing.com/WA/Buc...html#10.84.185



    Where is the best place to start to attempt to remedy this?
    Write a letter to the City council president...request that it be put on the next agenda and then attend.

    http://www.cityofbuckley.com/documen...%20Roster.html
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    When anyone writes about these obsolete ordinances just include a copy of he Chan decision. Save them the time and expense of hiring an attorney to "advise" them. Might also hurry them along in updating their park regs.
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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Read this to them as well, since they seem to have a problem with reading.

    http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/opinion.aspx?section=topic&id=21188


    Here's a link to Chan: http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pd...-4.pub.doc.pdf
    Last edited by jbone; 06-21-2012 at 05:43 PM.
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    Thanks for the input. In my e-mail I did provide a link to the Chan decision, as well as a link to RCW 9.41.290. I received a response early this morning that it was being handed off to the city attorney for their input.

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    Regular Member cpgrad08's Avatar
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    This is the reply I got back from the city today.



    Dear Mr. Brown,



    You have inquired about Revised Code of Washington Statute 9.41.290, entitled State Preemption, and its applicability to Lakewood Municipal Code 8.76.530. Specifically, you have asked why the City has adopted LMC 8.76.530 because you believe it is a violation of RCW 9.41.290.

    Adoption of Lakewood Municipal Code 8.76.530 is not a violation of the State law articulated in 9.41.290. RCW 9.41.290 allows Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities to enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300. RCW 9.41.300(2)(a) provides in pertinent part as follows:

    (2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
    (a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others;

    This language authorized the City of Lakewood to adopt an ordinance establishing firearms restrictions in those areas where discharge of a firearm creates a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals or property will be jeopardize, such as in parks. Lakewood Municipal Code section 8.76.530 entitled Firearms, Weapons was adopted based upon that authority.

    LMC 8.76.530 provides as follows:

    No person except duly authorized law enforcement personnel and/or persons licensed to carry a concealed weapon shall possess a firearm in a city park. No person shall possess a bow and arrow, crossbow, or air or gas weapon in a City park. No person shall discharge across, in, or into any park area a firearm, bow and arrow, crossbow, air or gas weapon, or any device capable of injuring or killing any person or animal, or damaging or destroying any public or private property provided that where the Department for good cause has authorized and approved a special recreational activity or a recreational program, upon finding that it is not inconsistent with City park use, this section shall not apply.

    Among other prohibitions, this code also prohibits anyone from discharging a firearm across, in or into any park area and makes it unlawful to possess a firearm in any City Park unless the person is a member of law enforcement or is otherwise licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

    If I can be of further assistance, please let me know.



    Anita Booker-Hay| Assistant City Attorney | Legal & City Clerk

    City of Lakewood

    6000 Main Street SW | Lakewood, WA 98499

    Ph: 253.589.2489 Ext 7755 | Fax: 253.589.3774 |
    I carry a Para Ordance 1911 .45 ACP.

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    Huh, apparently she doesn't know how to read or comprehend.

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    Huh, apparently she doesn't know how to read or comprehend.
    I agree.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    I presume they call it the “Lakewood exemption to State Preemption”

    I'd say they know and understand the constitution, preemption, AG opinion, and Chin just fine. And I'd say they have chosen to knowingly violate the people of Washington. Yep, th
    ey comprehend fine, their words demonstrate a willingness to ignore, and falsely interrupt preemption to suit their biased agenda. They have boldly told the people FU!

    Last edited by jbone; 06-25-2012 at 04:57 PM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    This is the reply I got back from the city today.

    Dear Mr. Brown,

    You have inquired about Revised Code of Washington Statute 9.41.290, entitled State Preemption, and its applicability to Lakewood Municipal Code 8.76.530. Specifically, you have asked why the City has adopted LMC 8.76.530 because you believe it is a violation of RCW 9.41.290.
    Adoption of Lakewood Municipal Code 8.76.530 is not a violation of the State law articulated in 9.41.290. RCW 9.41.290 allows Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities to enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300. RCW 9.41.300(2)(a) provides in pertinent part as follows:
    (2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
    (a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others;
    This language authorized the City of Lakewood to adopt an ordinance establishing firearms restrictions in those areas where discharge of a firearm creates a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals or property will be jeopardize, such as in parks. Lakewood Municipal Code section 8.76.530 entitled Firearms, Weapons was adopted based upon that authority.
    LMC 8.76.530 provides as follows:
    No person except duly authorized law enforcement personnel and/or persons licensed to carry a concealed weapon shall possess a firearm in a city park. No person shall possess a bow and arrow, crossbow, or air or gas weapon in a City park. No person shall discharge across, in, or into any park area a firearm, bow and arrow, crossbow, air or gas weapon, or any device capable of injuring or killing any person or animal, or damaging or destroying any public or private property provided that where the Department for good cause has authorized and approved a special recreational activity or a recreational program, upon finding that it is not inconsistent with City park use, this section shall not apply.
    Among other prohibitions, this code also prohibits anyone from discharging a firearm across, in or into any park area and makes it unlawful to possess a firearm in any City Park unless the person is a member of law enforcement or is otherwise licensed to carry a concealed weapon.
    If I can be of further assistance, please let me know.
    Anita Booker-Hay| Assistant City Attorney | Legal & City Clerk
    City of Lakewood
    6000 Main Street SW | Lakewood, WA 98499
    Ph: 253.589.2489 Ext 7755 | Fax: 253.589.3774
    |
    Proof that not all attorneys are created equal, some good to bad and some just plain stupid.
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    Regular Member cpgrad08's Avatar
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    What would be best way for me to write back to her.
    I carry a Para Ordance 1911 .45 ACP.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    I also had communicated with her and received the same reply.

    This is in part, my response along with the AG's opinion that goes directly to this.

    http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/op...rchive&id=8304



    Dear Ms. Booker,

    Thank you for your reply.....Your interpretation of the application of the State pre-emption is incorrect as to this specific sentence of the city code:

    No person except duly authorized law enforcement personnel and/or persons licensed to carry a concealed weapon shall possess a firearm in a city park.

    There are no laws in the state of Wa. that prohibit if I may openly carry a side arm for personal protection without a concealed pistol license any where in the state with the exceptions outlined in RCW 9.41.300.

    Please specify the exact language in 9.41.300 that allows the city to exclude the legal open carry of a sidearm in any publicly owned or operated facility or property not specifically called out in the RCW referenced and your interpretation of why the city is exempt from the law.

    I am also attaching an opinion on this issue directly from the state Attn'y General, Rob Mckenna

    I am asking that you review and communicate this appropriately to the city council to make amendments to remove this language in the city code.



    RCW 9.41.300

    Weapons prohibited in certain places Local laws and ordinances Exceptions Penalty.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Something to consider here, you start getting to many hands in this and replying you will just confuse the matter at hand and likely find more balking at getting any change.
    Those who are addressing or wanting to address this issue should get together and address the City Council while the City Attorney will get their impute to the Council you will also have your say on record with supporting documentation and will likely promote change.
    This similar situation happened to me here in Yakima and now there is no violating ordinances concerning citizens carrying.

    She has no power to change the law, could she have made it easier, sure but clearly she is not either smart enough or wanting you to go through the moves to make it happen.

    If you want assistance in getting this done PM me or there are others with experience on the board as well.

    I have had a city attorney reference Foreign Law, Civil War, and those ordinances were all repealed, I had a County Attorney tell me that I could not check my firearm at the Jail, we now have lock boxes for citizens to do just that, currently the state is saying they do not have to have secure firearms while visiting a State Penal Institution which is in the process being reviews by our State Attorney General so when it comes to City or County Attorneys that cannot enact change go to those who can enact change.
    Last edited by BigDave; 06-25-2012 at 06:05 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Sounds like it's time for an OC picnic; be sure to send invites to the council and PD

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    I also noticed that since the assistant attn'y didn't cc the Mayor her response to me, I forwarded him her answer, the AG's opinion, several links to the SCOWA refusal on the Seattle Parks case, all the revision's to park codes in recent histr'y..... and his city's crime stats....just to keep him in the loop on the discussion.

    Lakewood crime statistics report an overall downward trend in crime based on data from 11 years with violent crime decreasing and property crime decreasing. Based on this trend, the crime rate in Lakewood for 2012 is expected to be lower than in 2009.

    The city violent crime rate for Lakewood in 2009 was higher than the national violent crime rate average by 131.54% and the city property crime rate in Lakewood was higher than the national property crime rate average by 77.19%.

    In 2009 the city violent crime rate in Lakewood was higher than the violent crime rate in Washington by 200.43% and the city property crime rate in Lakewood was higher than the property crime rate in Washington by 46.71%.


    While it's good that it's going down, it's still there and still too high.....

    We'll see where it goes next, but it will be a process. Pierce County Parks took nearly a year to resolve....

    Next step will be to see their response and if it is not progressing, then to bring the other city council members into the information age.

    I'm getting a taste for BBQ'
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member cpgrad08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    I also noticed that since the assistant attn'y didn't cc the Mayor her response to me, I forwarded him her answer, the AG's opinion, several links to the SCOWA refusal on the Seattle Parks case, all the revision's to park codes in recent histr'y..... and his city's crime stats....just to keep him in the loop on the discussion.

    Lakewood crime statistics report an overall downward trend in crime based on data from 11 years with violent crime decreasing and property crime decreasing. Based on this trend, the crime rate in Lakewood for 2012 is expected to be lower than in 2009.

    The city violent crime rate for Lakewood in 2009 was higher than the national violent crime rate average by 131.54% and the city property crime rate in Lakewood was higher than the national property crime rate average by 77.19%.

    In 2009 the city violent crime rate in Lakewood was higher than the violent crime rate in Washington by 200.43% and the city property crime rate in Lakewood was higher than the property crime rate in Washington by 46.71%.


    While it's good that it's going down, it's still there and still too high.....

    We'll see where it goes next, but it will be a process. Pierce County Parks took nearly a year to resolve....

    Next step will be to see their response and if it is not progressing, then to bring the other city council members into the information age.

    I'm getting a taste for BBQ'
    Me too.
    I carry a Para Ordance 1911 .45 ACP.

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    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Sounds like it's time for an OC picnic; be sure to send invites to the council and PD
    You beat me to it.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    This is the reply I got back from the city today.



    Dear Mr. Brown,



    You have inquired about Revised Code of Washington Statute 9.41.290, entitled State Preemption, and its applicability to Lakewood Municipal Code 8.76.530. Specifically, you have asked why the City has adopted LMC 8.76.530 because you believe it is a violation of RCW 9.41.290.

    Adoption of Lakewood Municipal Code 8.76.530 is not a violation of the State law articulated in 9.41.290. RCW 9.41.290 allows Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities to enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300. RCW 9.41.300(2)(a) provides in pertinent part as follows:

    (2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
    (a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others;

    This language authorized the City of Lakewood to adopt an ordinance establishing firearms restrictions in those areas where discharge of a firearm creates a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals or property will be jeopardize, such as in parks. Lakewood Municipal Code section 8.76.530 entitled Firearms, Weapons was adopted based upon that authority.

    LMC 8.76.530 provides as follows:

    No person except duly authorized law enforcement personnel and/or persons licensed to carry a concealed weapon shall possess a firearm in a city park. No person shall possess a bow and arrow, crossbow, or air or gas weapon in a City park. No person shall discharge across, in, or into any park area a firearm, bow and arrow, crossbow, air or gas weapon, or any device capable of injuring or killing any person or animal, or damaging or destroying any public or private property provided that where the Department for good cause has authorized and approved a special recreational activity or a recreational program, upon finding that it is not inconsistent with City park use, this section shall not apply.

    Among other prohibitions, this code also prohibits anyone from discharging a firearm across, in or into any park area and makes it unlawful to possess a firearm in any City Park unless the person is a member of law enforcement or is otherwise licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

    If I can be of further assistance, please let me know.



    Anita Booker-Hay| Assistant City Attorney | Legal & City Clerk

    City of Lakewood

    6000 Main Street SW | Lakewood, WA 98499

    Ph: 253.589.2489 Ext 7755 | Fax: 253.589.3774 |
    Ms. Booker-Hay,

    You have not provided sufficient information as there is no requirement for a citizen to carry a firearm in plain view to posses a 'Concealed Pistol License'. Washington is an 'Open Carry' state and there is no provision in the RCW that prohibits the carrying of firearms when in plain view. Your code needs to be corrected as to avoid liability to the city and to prevent the harassment of a individual lawfully carrying their firearm without a 'Concealed' pistol license in plain view in a city park.

    By the way....go back to law school and learn how to read!
    Live Free or Die!

  23. #23
    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Lakewood Municipal Code 8.76.530 bans firearms in all parks under the cities control when this is a clear violation of RCW 9.41.290. I have emailed the city and waits for it's response
    Thanks for the information, I will keep that in mind should I ever get questioned.

    I was at Lakewood's Fort Steilacoom Park June 15th OCing with my Wife and Daughter at a picnic with her friends, was there for more than 3 hours and never had a problem.
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; 06-25-2012 at 10:14 PM.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member cpgrad08's Avatar
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    Wrote to her back after the reply and this is what I got.

    Dear Mr. Brown,



    I will continue to research this issue and will get back to you as soon as possible.



    Sincerely,



    Anita Booker-Hay,

    Assistant City Attorney
    I carry a Para Ordance 1911 .45 ACP.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Thor80's Avatar
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    Here is a few excerpts from Spokane Valley Municipal Code that appear to be on par that you can provide as examples for properly written code. Short and sweet, to the point.

    6.05.090 Rules governing use of City parks and facilities Violation a misdemeanor.

    G. Firearms, Weapons.

    1. No person except duly authorized law enforcement personnel shall possess a bow and arrow, crossbow, or air or gas weapon in a City park or facility. No person shall discharge across, in, or onto any facility a firearm, bow and arrow, crossbow, air or gas weapon, or any device capable of injuring or killing any person or animal, or damaging or destroying any public or private property. This subsection shall not apply where the department issued a special event permit for such activity.

    2. Possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by the City, county, or other municipality, is prohibited except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

    a. Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or

    b. Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.

    8.45.020 Firearms.

    All provisions of Chapter 9.41 RCW, as presently constituted or hereinafter amended, are adopted by reference. (Ord. 46 30, 2003).

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