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Thread: Birmingham: Open Carry is brandishing (Sounds like we need to attend another meeting)

  1. #226
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Venator. I don't see people being excluded because of race, color, or religion. Seems to me like you're trying to draw a distinction where one doesn't exist. If my ancestors were allowed to bare arms like we can in this country those atrocities would have been impossible.
    Mike I think you know exactly what I mean, the atrocities occurred in part to a police state and the sheep complying. All races, color, religions, sexual orientation, mental capacity, etc.

    Either he was committing a "crime" and should be arrested or he was not. The ID is a red herring.
    Special offer - buy a copy of "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" and get a free copy of "Bond of Unseen Blood" Go to http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  2. #227
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    seems like he also forgot how to spell bear.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Is it possible that the police would still have arrested him, and charged him with the very same crimes he was charged with,............... even after providing ID?
    Considering this is pretty much exactly what happened, I would say yes, it is definitely possible.

  4. #229
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVI7 View Post
    Considering this is pretty much exactly what happened, I would say yes, it is definitely possible.
    If they wouldn't have arrested him on the spot, they would have known where he lived (from his ID) and they'd assuredly be by later to pick him up

  5. #230
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Either he was committing a "crime" and should be arrested or he was not. The ID is a red herring.
    PRECISELY!

    The young man lawfully declined to show ID. Then he was wrongfully arrested!

    Do not let the molehill that is the former get in your way of seeing the mountain that is the latter, folks!

    The authorities, some media, and many comments online are trying ferociously to distract rightful concern with the mountain by pointing at a molehill.

    Lawfully refusing to ID yourself, at worst, is "rude".

    Wrongful arrest is a form of kidnapping by agents of the state (no matter how briefly it lasts). Wrongful prosecution is abuse of power by the state and, thus, a SERIOUS violation of your rights.

    Which is far, far worse?

    Folks, get your head straight about exactly what is involved with Sean Combs' situation!
    Last edited by DanM; 07-09-2012 at 04:04 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  6. #231
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    I keep seeing this quote from Judge Marc Barron, and I am not sure exactly what he means. Can somebody decipher this for me? How does this work with preemption exactly? What is a Home Rule city?

    "City ordinances must follow constitutional law," Barron said. "(However) Home Rule cities have specific authority to enact ordinances in the interest of the city.""City ordinances must follow constitutional law," Barron said. "(However) Home Rule cities have specific authority to enact ordinances in the interest of the city."
    Last edited by SVI7; 07-09-2012 at 04:49 PM.

  7. #232
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    Wow, after reading the comments on that article (patch) I'm thinking we'll be avoiding Michigan in the future if we ever decide to move out of NM (no offense to the good guys there). Sorry you guys have to put up with that over there, and I hope all the charges are dropped for being as ridiculous as they are.

  8. #233
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVI7 View Post
    I keep seeing this quote from Judge Marc Barron, and I am not sure exactly what he means. Can somebody decipher this for me? How does this work with preemption exactly? What is a Home Rule city?

    "City ordinances must follow constitutional law," Barron said. "(However) Home Rule cities have specific authority to enact ordinances in the interest of the city.""City ordinances must follow constitutional law," Barron said. "(However) Home Rule cities have specific authority to enact ordinances in the interest of the city."
    If you read through the MCRGO v Ferndale, the judges discussed this issue. Basically, Home-Rule cities can enact ordinances to promote safety, borrow money, etc. However, there are situations in which the state preempts the ability of cities to enact ordinances beyond those expressly allowed by the state. Examples include the vehicle laws, the fire code, and firearms. So, basically, if the state did NOT preempt the ability of cities to regulate firearms, any city could restrict firearms ALMOST any way they saw fit. However, preemption has taken the away the ability of cities to regulate firearms.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    If you read through the MCRGO v Ferndale, the judges discussed this issue. Basically, Home-Rule cities can enact ordinances to promote safety, borrow money, etc. However, there are situations in which the state preempts the ability of cities to enact ordinances beyond those expressly allowed by the state. Examples include the vehicle laws, the fire code, and firearms. So, basically, if the state did NOT preempt the ability of cities to regulate firearms, any city could restrict firearms ALMOST any way they saw fit. However, preemption has taken the away the ability of cities to regulate firearms.
    That is what I though, I guess I was just confused as to why he would even mention Home Rule cities if that doesn't actually have any bearing on the gun laws.

  10. #235
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Mike I think you know exactly what I mean, the atrocities occurred in part to a police state and the sheep complying. All races, color, religions, sexual orientation, mental capacity, etc.

    Either he was committing a "crime" and should be arrested or he was not. The ID is a red herring.
    Just get on the train; its for your safety. Don't make a scene; we're here to help you. Get on the train, quickly, now!

    Next, we'll have to pin our CPLs to our outer garments. Then they won't have to ask for your papers......
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVI7 View Post
    That is what I though, I guess I was just confused as to why he would even mention Home Rule cities if that doesn't actually have any bearing on the gun laws.
    Did anyone make it to the meeting tonight?

    They don't allow comments until later, but at the rate I'm going I don't think that I will make it before they wrap up.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVI7 View Post
    That is what I though, I guess I was just confused as to why he would even mention Home Rule cities if that doesn't actually have any bearing on the gun laws.

    He was grasping at straws.

  13. #238
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    The trial is a go!

    Just got word that the trial will take place tomorrow morning as originally planned. It is suspected that it will take more than one day however. Anyone still planning on visiting birmingham tomorrow evening?

  14. #239
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    What is this disclosure law you're talking about? There is no specific law on disclosure. The only one I can think of is the one pertaining to concealed carry.

    If you're stopped there is nothing wrong with handing over your CPL. I have nothing to hide because I lawfully carry my firearm. Too many people are just looking for UNECESSARY confrontation. I'm rearely bothered by police for open carry. If the kid just handed over his ID this whole fiasco could have been avoided. Looking at it from the officers perspective Combs looks way under 18. I see it no different then a kid like him sitting in a bar with a beer in front of him & drinking it. If an officer has reasonable suspecion the person is breaking the law by under age drinking he has a duty to ask for the kids drivers license. Not only the officer would have the duty but even a manger for the bar. In Michigan you're required to have a valid ID showing you're over 21 regardless of how you look which makes it pretty open to ask for ID & if it can't be produced the person should be asked to leave the bar. This goes with the similar law stating an individual MUST be 18 to carry a firearm. He surely made the stupid decision to not comply. 1 check of an ID and he would have been on his way. Instead he got what he asked for a confrontation to make a spectacle of himself in front of all a crowd of people. I'm all for open carry of any firearm and am not against the fact he legally carried the rifle (based on what I read) but the way he handled the police was not smart.

    People here tend to rah rah every time a confrontation occurs but fail to think about the situation and how to properly handle it. I support open carry I don't support people who don't use common sense in dealing with the police.

    Mike
    I have also had very few negative interactions with police, but what you are saying goes against everything that freedom stands for. Where do we draw the line? This person was not breaking the law. Everything he was doing that night was legal. But what you are saying is that because the officer decided to the kid might not be old enough, he had reasonable suspicion? If an officer walks up to you, and tells you that he thinks you are a felon, with no further explaination, do you just give in, and let him check? Thats what they want us to do. This kid did exactly what he had the right to do. How dare you chastize someone for fully, and legally exercising their rights? You must be one of those "down the middle" people.
    Eye95......
    I am not with you. If the particular way in which you choose to break the laws is to take up arms against the government, know that I will, at the moment, choose to stand on the government's side and take up arms against you."
    In reference to the March on DC.

    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

  15. #240
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVI7 View Post
    That is what I though, I guess I was just confused as to why he would even mention Home Rule cities if that doesn't actually have any bearing on the gun laws.
    If I am correct, didnt Ferndale try the "Home Rule" approach?

    Thats what alot of cities here in Iowa are reaching for. The sad part is, the "home rule" laws here are CLEARLY explained to not interfere with the general assembly. I.E State law. And even Iowa Code 724.28 clearly preempts local ordinances, the cities have tried resolutions to ban firearms.
    Eye95......
    I am not with you. If the particular way in which you choose to break the laws is to take up arms against the government, know that I will, at the moment, choose to stand on the government's side and take up arms against you."
    In reference to the March on DC.

    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVI7 View Post
    Just got word that the trial will take place tomorrow morning as originally planned. It is suspected that it will take more than one day however. Anyone still planning on visiting birmingham tomorrow evening?
    I plan to attend the concert, hopefully others will come, I have cleared my schedule tomorrow, so I shouldn't have any issues.

  17. #242
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Perhaps this is a very stupid question... perhaps not....

    I've seen folks suggest that the young man could easily have avoided any and all problems had he simply provided ID, whether required by law or not, to prove he was of an age to be legally carrying a long gun.

    Well.. here comes the question....

    Is it possible that the police would still have arrested him, and charged him with the very same crimes he was charged with,............... even after providing ID?
    Well as a matter of fact that is exactly what happened. He politely refused, they forcefully took his ID. Then even though they knew he was of legal age (their supposed reason for the stop) the arrested him anyway and trumped up the spaghetti charges to cover their a$$es.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

  18. #243
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    PRECISELY!

    The young man lawfully declined to show ID. Then he was wrongfully arrested!

    Do not let the molehill that is the former get in your way of seeing the mountain that is the latter, folks!

    The authorities, some media, and many comments online are trying ferociously to distract rightful concern with the mountain by pointing at a molehill.

    Lawfully refusing to ID yourself, at worst, is "rude".

    Wrongful arrest is a form of kidnapping by agents of the state (no matter how briefly it lasts). Wrongful prosecution is abuse of power by the state and, thus, a SERIOUS violation of your rights.

    Which is far, far worse?

    Folks, get your head straight about exactly what is involved with Sean Combs' situation!
    Thanks Dan -

    I find it laughable that many here are having a hard time understanding this. Even someone who started their own pro 2A website??? What the heck?

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

  19. #244
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    many here are having a hard time understanding this.
    Many, at the time, had a hard time understanding why some guys dressed up like Indians and dumped tea out of the ship.

    Many, at the time, had a hard time understanding why some guys refused going along with the demands of the King and the King's men.

    Alas, for many, the protection of liberty--both large and small, from gun-rights rallies down to simple refusal to "show me your papers!"--are before their very eyes and they do not see it. That is simply a historical fact. For some darn reason, most people have no problem seeing the past with clarity, but are unexplainably blind to perceiving what is going on in the present.

    It is our job to attempt to remove the blinders our brethren sometimes put on themselves.
    Last edited by DanM; 07-10-2012 at 11:55 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  20. #245
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Many, at the time, had a hard time understanding why some guys dressed up like Indians and dumped tea out of the ship.

    Many, at the time, had a hard time understanding why some guys refused going along with the demands of the King and the King's men.

    Alas, for many, the protection of liberty--both large and small, from gun-rights rallies down to simple refusal to "show me your papers!"--are before their very eyes and they do not see it. That is simply a historical fact. For some darn reason, most people have no problem seeing the past with clarity, but are unexplainably blind to perceiving what is going on in the present.

    It is our job to attempt to remove the blinders our brethren sometimes put on themselves.
    Well said my friend. Well said.

    Unfortunately, we need these types of situations to remove those blinders to allow people to see whats going on around them. I say KUDOS to this kid for standing up for his rights. These people are trying to make an example out of him, and I hope beyond all hope that he wins.
    Eye95......
    I am not with you. If the particular way in which you choose to break the laws is to take up arms against the government, know that I will, at the moment, choose to stand on the government's side and take up arms against you."
    In reference to the March on DC.

    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

  21. #246
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Is there still a meet up tonight at the concert?

  22. #247
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    GoldenEagle and I are in the park ...will anyone else show?

    We're not in the shade so GE's head may turn golden brown

  23. #248
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    I dont know whats going on but I would much rather be there than stuck at work
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  24. #249
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    The band is warming up...no one else here yet

  25. #250
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Seeing no other open carry people, we are about to leave. I will leave you with this ostentatious display of yoga that we just saw.

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