• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Greeley Man Wounded at Gun Range

M-Taliesin

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
Howdy Folks!
Ya'll may have noticed that I haven't made comment since posting the link to this here story. I guess I am non-plussed.
Not only because of this self inflicted gutshot, but also because of the Terry Gerber accident that I saw months ago and thought "What a DA!"

You might feel my particular comment is a little harsh, but lets go back and review the basic elements of gun safety. I don't mean the exotic stuff, but the basic (day one) stuff every carrier should have learned right out of the chute:

1. Treat every firearm as if it is loaded.
Whether you believe a firearm was loaded or not, you still behave as if it is loaded. "I didn't think it was loaded...." Ain't a reasonable defense.

2. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction. Never point your sidearm at anything you do not intend to destroy.
As we all know (or should) that includes anything or anybody we might sweep while drawing our sidearm.)
When a gunshot is self inflicted, this basic rule got violated.

3. Be certain of your target and what is beyond it.
That's the short version. It means that you should be cognizant of your sight picture and understand what is near your target, behind your target, and be doggone certain your bullet will hit your target and nothing unintended. Folks sometimes forget that they are responsible for every single bullet they fire, whether it is intended or not being irrelevant to any charges that may result. If the bullet travels through a bad guy and hits some innocent kid behind him, you're going to prison.
If you've just shot yourself in the belly, that's your responsibility and indicates you've failed in the basic elements of firearms safety.

4. Keep your finger away from the trigger until on target and ready to shoot.
While folks might speculate on clothing or holsters causing an accidental discharge, that is by no stretch of the imagination 'safe gun handling'.
Nothing but a finger should be able to trip that trigger. If clothing or holsters can trip it, then you're not doing it right.
The safety should come off as the gun is brought on target to shoot... not while it is coming out of the holster or as the hand reaches for it.
There is a reason they call it a safety, just as there is a reason they call them a hospital or morgue.

I'd add a couple of my own to the mix:
Never draw a weapon from the holster until you intend to use it.
If you draw it intending to use it, be darn sure you need to use it.
If you're going to use it, shoot as if your life depends on it. It had better!!! (along with the lives of other innocents, of course)
If your life depends on it, do not play around with aiming for the arm or leg. Center mass, 2 rounds, final tap to the head.
Pray, really hard, that you never need to apply the last one on the list.

So far as I am concerned, the safety comes off once the weapon is on target. Not before, and not during the presentation, but only once the basics are covered and just before the finger goes to the trigger.

A neligent discharge ain't the fault of a holster. It ain't to be blamed on clothing. It ain't the handgun either.
It's the man or woman who improperly handled a firearm.

From what I gather, this bloke shot himself while reholstering. Why was the safety not back on????? Really?????????
There just ain't no possible excuse for this type of accident on reholster. The man screwed up.

All the foregoing is my opinion, somewhat. The basic rules of firearm safety are not an opinion; but hard, cold fact.

It is a sad thing when we must carry a firearm for our own self defense.
It is a tragic thing when the only threat our self defense is ourselves.

I don't want to report on any more Colorado gun range accidents.
Or any other Coloradoan shooting him or her self because they played with a deadly weapon and lost the game!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 
Last edited:

1supra

Regular Member
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
44
Location
Colorado Springs
Notice how it's always "I didn't think it was loaded.." when people get hurt. You never hear "I personally verified it was unloaded" in self-inflicted incidents. Gun safety, gun safety, gun safety. :banghead:
 

xd shooter

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
333
Location
usa
Excellent reminder M.

One thing though, SOME handguns do not have external safeties to put on before holstering.

Glock and XD's come to mind. I carry an XD .45 is a Blackhawk Serpa CQC holster, but I practice CONSTANTLY, using it while shooting IDPA, USPSA, and 3 Gun.

I am always conscious of where my trigger finger is, but especially when reholstering.
 

Bellum_Intus

Regular Member
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
540
Location
Rush, Colorado
Good post M.. :p

Supra, did I teach you that or did you know it before :p .. I ALWAYS tell people, (you'll hear it again Sunday) .. I've modified Rule 1.. " ALL firearms are loaded until you have personally verified them safe"

Good point XD.. I work 10 minutes a day with snap caps holstering and presenting.. that's a bit extreme, but for those who practice competition / defensive shooting, it's necessary ..

As far as TEx's video.. I've played it over and over.. and over.. and to me, it looks like he was rushing a technique he was not COMPLETELY INTIMATE with.. In this case (it's happened to me, firearm jams in holster) .. you are practising a technique that is DANGEROUS, the firearm jams in holster.. STOP.. step back.. slow down... don't force the issue.. a youtube video isn't life or death..


I shoot defensive from close guard, I only went full speed after TONS of dry fire and crawl / walk /run drills.. If I had changed holsters, I damn sure would not have tried this without starting over.. from crawl..

--Rob
 
Last edited:

Bellum_Intus

Regular Member
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
540
Location
Rush, Colorado
Growl...

I just can't leave it be I guess.. This thread worked its way to a pet peeve of mine.. "Youtube Gun Stars" ..
I think the "TEX" thing was just.. plain stupid.. reason, he wants to be a YT Gun star.. you know them, you see them.. rolling around in the dirt shooting up the desert in 'run and gun' courses, shooting "cawwwwbooiii" style and demonstrating how great they are blowing up toilets .. AND being so full of themselves being 'experts' that they create UNSAFE gun owners who watch these videos.

Oh gee, "nutn.. " did it, I'm gonna go out and try it too!

Honestly, these people make me sick.. I don't think it's productive to demonstrate VERY dangerous techniques and influence others to try these to support your Megalomania. People watch these videos, and become fan boys, and.. they hurt themselves.

I personally do not try/train a technique unless I have reason to do so. Example, shooting from close combat position as "tex' tried.. It's part of the POST qualification, so It's necessary for me to train (I am an applicant w/ the CMR). I don't roll around in the dirt shooting upside down standing on my head with a grenade in one hand and 4 guns in the other because I saw it on YT.. AND I'm damn sure not going to make a video demonstrating this because? It'll get someone killed..

I'm not sure the Greely incident had anything to do with YT .. yeah.. but never mind.. I'll rant for days on "youtube gun stars"..

--Rob
 
Last edited:

mobiushky

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
830
Location
Alaska (ex-Colorado)
Growl...

I just can't leave it be I guess.. This thread worked its way to a pet peeve of mine.. "Youtube Gun Stars" ..
I think the "TEX" thing was just.. plain stupid.. reason, he wants to be a YT Gun star.. you know them, you see them.. rolling around in the dirt shooting up the desert in 'run and gun' courses, shooting "cawwwwbooiii" style and demonstrating how great they are blowing up toilets .. AND being so full of themselves being 'experts' that they create UNSAFE gun owners who watch these videos.

Oh gee, "nutn.. " did it, I'm gonna go out and try it too!

Honestly, these people make me sick.. I don't think it's productive to demonstrate VERY dangerous techniques and influence others to try these to support your Megalomania. People watch these videos, and become fan boys, and.. they hurt themselves.

I personally do not try/train a technique unless I have reason to do so. Example, shooting from close combat position as "tex' tried.. It's part of the POST qualification, so It's necessary for me to train (I am an applicant w/ the CMR). I don't roll around in the dirt shooting upside down standing on my head with a grenade in one hand and 4 guns in the other because I saw it on YT.. AND I'm damn sure not going to make a video demonstrating this because? It'll get someone killed..

I'm not sure the Greely incident had anything to do with YT .. yeah.. but never mind.. I'll rant for days on "youtube gun stars"..

--Rob
There are only a few I watch with any regularity. I like Hikok45, he's humorous and always safe. Plus he shoots stuff I'll probably never get to. I don't like the OC guys who challenge the police. Like they're trying to be jerks intentionally.
 

Bellum_Intus

Regular Member
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
540
Location
Rush, Colorado
There are only a few I watch with any regularity. I like Hikok45, he's humorous and always safe. Plus he shoots stuff I'll probably never get to. I don't like the OC guys who challenge the police. Like they're trying to be jerks intentionally.

Hikok is funny, but if you watch his firearm handling, at times it's sloppy.. but at least he's just demonstraing the firearm itself and not touting himelf as some sort of Navy Seal special ops green beret tacitcal god -ohbythewayiwasjustpilotintheairforce- wanna be.. =)

The OC videos.. REALLY get my blood boiling.. those people do NOTHING to promote OC and in fact, give fuel to the anti-gun lobby.. they don't advocate anything but their EGO's..

--Rob
 

mobiushky

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
830
Location
Alaska (ex-Colorado)
Hikok is funny, but if you watch his firearm handling, at times it's sloppy.. but at least he's just demonstraing the firearm itself and not touting himelf as some sort of Navy Seal special ops green beret tacitcal god -ohbythewayiwasjustpilotintheairforce- wanna be.. =)

The OC videos.. REALLY get my blood boiling.. those people do NOTHING to promote OC and in fact, give fuel to the anti-gun lobby.. they don't advocate anything but their EGO's..

--Rob

Just curious, did you see my thread about the ATF looking to ban non-sporting shotguns?
 

mahkagari

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
1,186
Location
, ,
Good post M.. :p

Supra, did I teach you that or did you know it before :p .. I ALWAYS tell people, (you'll hear it again Sunday) .. I've modified Rule 1.. " ALL firearms are loaded until you have personally verified them safe"

On the camping trip that I did the gun safety/watermelon lesson for a group of under 10s recently, I did an unrehearsed drill with my 7yo. I called her up and told her to hold my shotgun. She asked me to open the action. I told her it wasn't loaded. She insisted I open the action. I put my "irritated Dad" tone on and told her I already checked it wasn't loaded and that I wasn't going to stand there holding it all day. She got perturbed and defensive and said, "PLEASE. Open the action!" I opened it and praised her and sent her back to her seat. I pointed out to the kids that they are never to take anyone's word for a gun being unloaded. They are loaded until you have checked them.
 

mobiushky

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
830
Location
Alaska (ex-Colorado)
On the camping trip that I did the gun safety/watermelon lesson for a group of under 10s recently, I did an unrehearsed drill with my 7yo. I called her up and told her to hold my shotgun. She asked me to open the action. I told her it wasn't loaded. She insisted I open the action. I put my "irritated Dad" tone on and told her I already checked it wasn't loaded and that I wasn't going to stand there holding it all day. She got perturbed and defensive and said, "PLEASE. Open the action!" I opened it and praised her and sent her back to her seat. I pointed out to the kids that they are never to take anyone's word for a gun being unloaded. They are loaded until you have checked them.

Great story! I love it. Thanks for being and teaching responsibility. I'm going to use your examples when I work with my kids.

We intend to do the watermelon vs JHP demo next month for the kids so they can see how dangerous guns really are.
 

Bellum_Intus

Regular Member
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
540
Location
Rush, Colorado
"PLEASE. Open the action!" I opened it and praised her and sent her back to her seat. I pointed out to the kids that they are never to take anyone's word for a gun being unloaded. They are loaded until you have checked them.

ABSO FREAKING LUTELY..

THIS is what I teach my kids as well.. awesome.. =)

--Rob
 

mahkagari

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
1,186
Location
, ,
We intend to do the watermelon vs JHP demo next month for the kids so they can see how dangerous guns really are.

It was actually a little anticlimatic for me after watching too many slo-mo explosions on Mythbusters. With just a "pop" under hearing protection, the watermelon was there one second, gone the next. I did show the kids that the watermelon was the same size as their torsos. I thought about telling them to imagine it was a friend, brother, or sister before shooting, but didn't. The spray went pretty far behind to show them.
 

mobiushky

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
830
Location
Alaska (ex-Colorado)
It was actually a little anticlimatic for me after watching too many slo-mo explosions on Mythbusters. With just a "pop" under hearing protection, the watermelon was there one second, gone the next. I did show the kids that the watermelon was the same size as their torsos. I thought about telling them to imagine it was a friend, brother, or sister before shooting, but didn't. The spray went pretty far behind to show them.

Well then I'll just have to bring the camera and do my own slo-mo recording... LOL. I want them to really see the effect of the gun, so they understand. I teach them safety at home all the time, but none of them have been in the presence of an actual gun firing. So it will be eye opening. I have to wait though. We told them they couldn't go shooting until they could all shoot, but my youngest is still a little too young to shoot my Glock. So we're going to get a 22LR pistol before we go again. That way all three can shoot while we're out at the range.
 

mobiushky

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
830
Location
Alaska (ex-Colorado)

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Don't bash me.. but, Glocks and Clothing.. Clothing gets caught in trigger and bang.. Glock leg syndrome..

Most negligent discharges occur when presenting and holstering.

--Rob

Sound justification for returning one's firearm to something less hair-trigger than condition zero before pointing it in any direction other than the target downrange, much less returning it to your holster.

I do hope he has a full recovery!
 
Top