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Thread: New thread on budlight's gripe to avoid further hijacking

  1. #1
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    New thread on budlight's gripe to avoid further hijacking

    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    budlight and Michigander

    You both need to stop.

    There is a young mans future here that we should be more concerned with.

    Take your bickering to PM's please. Or better yet, call each other.
    I wish in this thread, as I wished in the other threads, to resolve the matter as you described. PM's, calls, and even meeting up at a coffee shop are all fine with me, but apparently not okay with budlight. So I am going to say the following.

    White suburban folks choose not to go to detroit frequently, and much of this has to do with hate and fear, largely due to the problems detroit has. It's a never ending vicious cycle, because the fear and hatred lead to less money coming in from whites with better jobs, which lead to crime. The fear and hatred cause a noticeable tension when blacks come from detroit into the burbs, largely discouraging the them from living or working in the burbs, or even going to see a movie or something. The elevated crime rates, well that causes people in detroit, and indeed other ghetto areas to try to look and act more tough and aggressive than they otherwise would. This attitude and appearance again leads into fear and hatred from whites, (quite reasonable, isn't it, not wanting anything to do with people who dress like thugs?) often directly translating into things like denying blacks jobs, and calling the cops for a suspicious person call.

    Any attempt to talk about detroits crime problems which denies this is utterly absurd, and it seems that very few here wish to acknowledge it exists to begin with. This bothers me, and it should bother everyone else here too. As people who are arguing that we are for a safer, friendlier society, we are looking like idiots if we deny that it works this way.

    What I said, that apparently pissed off budlight so much, was this

    "Let me first say that I'm NOT calling you racist.

    But I am saying that this attitude about black communities fuels racism, the same way that inner city attitudes about exuding fake aggression fuels racism. "

    I was referring to the fact that society at large has this attitude, (and I certainly have had it at times myself, because again, fear and hatred of thug looking people is reasonable on some level, even if the people who look like thugs are otherwise good people) and it fuels the fire that is crime, poverty, and a generally bad attitude so many people have about detroit. I was not attempting to single out budlight in any way, shape or form. I wasn't meaning to accuse him of anything in any way. Rather, my intention was to make a comment "on that note" to attempt to make a more broad point, and one that I believe is crucial for open carriers to understand, especially in a thread that is about this very issue, even if people won't accept it. Not acknowledging these basic racial issues makes us look like idiots to those who understand them well. What makes us look even stupider is when we have absurd public arguments while the press is having a field day with our community, and this website is under heavy observation from all sorts of people. That was why I tried repeatedly to discuss the matter privately.

    If budlight could be a more reasonable person in expressing his disdain for his take on what I said, I'd happily apologize to him over it. I can indeed see why it could be misconstrued, and I don't wish for people to think I'm insulting them in a circumstance where I'm not. But as it stands, I don't really feel apologizing is called for, on account of the repeat mud slinging and unwillingness to talk to me privately. I bring this up here, in this fashion, merely in hopes that it can stop.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-21-2012 at 09:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I wish in this thread, as I wished in the other threads, to resolve the matter as you described. PM's, calls, and even meeting up at a coffee shop are all fine with me, but apparently not okay with budlight. So I am going to say the following.

    White suburban folks choose not to go to detroit frequently, and much of this has to do with hate and fear, largely due to the problems detroit has. It's a never ending vicious cycle, because the fear and hatred lead to less money coming in from whites with better jobs, which lead to crime. The fear and hatred cause a noticeable tension when blacks come from detroit into the burbs, largely discouraging the them from living or working in the burbs, or even going to see a movie or something. The elevated crime rates, well that causes people in detroit, and indeed other ghetto areas to try to look and act more tough and aggressive than they otherwise would. This attitude and appearance again leads into fear and hatred from whites, (quite reasonable, isn't it, not wanting anything to do with people who dress like thugs?) often directly translating into things like denying blacks jobs, and calling the cops for a suspicious person call.

    Any attempt to talk about detroits crime problems which denies this is utterly absurd, and it seems that very few here wish to acknowledge it exists to begin with. This bothers me, and it should bother everyone else here too. As people who are arguing that we are for a safer, friendlier society, we are looking like idiots if we deny that it works this way.

    What I said, that apparently pissed off budlight so much, was this

    "Let me first say that I'm NOT calling you racist.

    But I am saying that this attitude about black communities fuels racism, the same way that inner city attitudes about exuding fake aggression fuels racism. "

    I was referring to the fact that society at large has this attitude, (and I certainly have had it at times myself, because again, fear and hatred of thug looking people is reasonable on some level, even if the people who look like thugs are otherwise good people) and it fuels the fire that is crime, poverty, and a generally bad attitude so many people have about detroit. I was not attempting to single out budlight in any way, shape or form. I wasn't meaning to accuse him of anything in any way. Rather, my intention was to make a comment "on that note" to attempt to make a more broad point, and one that I believe is crucial for open carriers to understand, especially in a thread that is about this very issue, even if people won't accept it. Not acknowledging these basic racial issues makes us look like idiots to those who understand them well. What makes us look even stupider is when we have absurd public arguments while the press is having a field day with our community, and this website is under heavy observation from all sorts of people. That was why I tried repeatedly to discuss the matter privately.

    If budlight could be a more reasonable person in expressing his disdain for his take on what I said, I'd happily apologize to him over it. I can indeed see why it could be misconstrued, and I don't wish for people to think I'm insulting them in a circumstance where I'm not. But as it stands, I don't really feel apologizing is called for, on account of the repeat mud slinging and unwillingness to talk to me privately. I bring this up here, in this fashion, merely in hopes that it can stop.
    I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you per say. The beef he has is you bringing up race when he didn't and him taking offense to that. In my opinion this has gotten way out of hand and is a matter of misunderstanding. I suggest we all move on to gun related topics.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I humbly suggest that the root causes of crime which we all carry guns for are very much gun related topics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I humbly suggest that the root causes of crime which we all carry guns for are very much gun related topics.

    ^ I agree

    What's a shame, besides everything true in the OP, is that we cant even have a discussion, an honest one, about racism, because people think it's racist. It is not!. Grow up people.

    Racism is ugly, talking about it is not. This is an issue that we have to face and deal with, head on, and in the mirror.

    I would argue that the black race has done more to perpetuate the problem of racism than the white race, often promoting racism, sometimes committing it themselves. There is a tremendous double standard in this country, and even addressing it is tabu.

    I believe that people are different, no better, no worse mind you, but different. Same with men being different than women, we are not equal, we are not supposed to be. When that is said, people snap to the opposite extreme, and make assumptions. One is not superior to the other. In the sense that we are human, we are equal, but that's where it stops, things get really complex really fast after that.

    I dont think people should be forced together, nor apart, society's throughout the world have gathered amongst themselves, it's a natural course of human life. Being afraid to go into certain areas, or cities however, should never happen.

    I sincerely hope that this doesnt turn into a race war on these boards.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 06-21-2012 at 10:54 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    sorry, tapatalk posted to wrong thread
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 06-21-2012 at 11:03 PM.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I humbly suggest that the root causes of crime which we all carry guns for are very much gun related topics.
    I agree, though while race is a component of this, since we are all part of the archaic term "race", I have no problem defending myself against anyone of any color. Funny, in the scenario I run in my mind of an attack the BG is always white.

    I think race is an important topic and worthy of discussion. You missed my point above and that is the whole thing was a misunderstanding between you two.

    So if you want a thread on race and crime as a reason for our desire to carry a firearm for defense, then start a thread about that and leave the bud at home.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I do not go to Detroit because it is a hell hole, it has nothing to do with race. If you want to claim that Detroit is a hell hole because it's mostly black (which sounds like what your saying) that's on you.

    The fact is that Detroit's crime rate is through the roof. The National average is 4 violent crimes per 100,000 people, and Michigan's is 4.9 overall (though Detroit probably skews the state numbers), Detroit's crime rate is a staggering 23.83, nearly 6 TIMES the National average, and that is only the REPORTED crimes, the majority of crimes in Detroit are unreported, The Detroit Police Department has a history of not releasing all of their crime numbers, and that's assuming they are even reported to the police to start with. To put it another way that's: 310 Murders, 410 Rapes, 5,540 Robberies, and 10,476 Assaults, and again those are only the reported numbers. That is also only the VIOLENT crime, the actual crime rate is much more.

    When looking at "non violent" crime the National average is 29.4, Michigan's is 27.14, but Detroit's is 67.16, or 17,092 Burglaries, 18,200 Thefts, and 12,643 Stolen Cars, and again these are only the reported numbers.

    Detroit has 468 crimes per square mile vs. the national average of just 39.3, and Michigan's scant 19, and again those are just the reported numbers.

    THAT'S why I don't go there, THAT'S why I treat 8 Mile, and Telegraph as demilitarized zones, or no mans lands, the dividing lines between civilization, and the savages.

    If you go in to Detroit you stand greater than a 600 times greater chance of being the victim of a violent crime, and that's just based on the official numbers, THAT'S why I, and any sane person avoid that city like the plague. I carry a gun every day, and have at least 46 rounds on me, but that doesn't mean that I want to use it, and it is just good prudence not to deliberately go to such a dangerous, and lawless place as Detroit. Mad Max is a great movie, but I would rather not have to live it if it can be avoided.

    Go drive through Detroit sometime, you don't even need to leave the freeway necessarily, and take a look at all the burned out, bombed out, and boarded up buildings that you can see just from the freeway alone, or go off the freeway onto the surface streets, and look at all the debris in the streets, and sidewalks, and all the burned out cars that line the roads, and all the buildings with heavy steel bars, and chain link fence on their windows, and doors, and razor wire on their roofs, and buildings with collapsed roofs, and holes that appear to have been BLOWN in their walls, and all the blocks with only one, or two abandoned boarded up houses that look more like rural Alabama than a major city, and the general post apocalyptic look to the place, and tell me it's just about race.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Perhaps you missed in the other thread where I spoke of the fact that I have numerous friends in Detroit. I have walked hundreds of miles through detroit, and I have pedaled over a thousand. I know the city quite well for being a mostly white guy who never lived there.

    As I said in the other thread, if you want to take things at face value, and not learn more about the place, that's fine. The problem I have is when we start telling people to avoid it, and without knowing much about it ourselves. With a bit of preparation, and yes by that I mean guns and shooting skill, as well as a positive attitude, a starter set of street smarts and a desire to avoid trouble, it's a magnificent city for those who wish to see it or live in it. I don't suggest anyone ever goes blatantly looking for trouble, and in detroit if someone is that stupid there is no doubt they'd find it. But if your head isn't stuck in the sand, you'll do just fine.

    Another way to put it is that non racist people, such as the great majority of those on this forum, can through no fault of their own, engage in activities which promote racial inequality. Boycotting detroit, for example, is such a thing.

    The very act of carrying guns, in fact, often boils down to a fear of black people. I am sad to say I have been to two rural gun shops where a selling point on guns was "to take care of problems with *******". Not that this applies to this forum at large, but we're being foolish if we ignore that millions of CCW'ers carry their guns with the concept of being attacked primarily by blacks in their head.

    As the front lines of the gun rights community, we should be pushing people to not only live their lives safely and sensibly, but also to not live in fear. Guns can beautifully promote equality by reducing fears of crime. But then they can also hugely have the opposite effect when gun carriers, most definitely to include suburban cops, go around trying to keep detroit and the burbs separated.

    To put it in perspective another way, I've been criminally victimized by the police many times. Walking, driving and bicycling around detroit, I've never had a serious problem. What does it say about our community if we can stand up to the cops, but are terrified of Detroit? Many people who live outside of detroit, such as sports fans, white liberals who think they can save the world, contractors, and many other groups of people, they visit the city daily. What's the difference between us and them? We tend to be much more heavily armed, and due to our public roles, getting talked to by strangers while OCing, many of us are more socially skilled, not to mention aware of our surroundings. The idea that we'd at large be scared of detroit, really, is pretty bad. I don't believe most people here actually are, but it's pretty bad that we're allowing it to look that way.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-22-2012 at 09:20 PM.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I think race is an important topic and worthy of discussion. You missed my point above and that is the whole thing was a misunderstanding between you two.
    Didn't miss the point, it's just that my repeated attempts to get budlight to talk to me privately went unanswered, other than by verbally degrading me in the threads. If he wants the conversation to be public, that's just fine with me, and in essence I would interpret that as wanting the discussion to involve all interested people, rather than keeping it between us. And since that was his wish, this thread seems as good of a place as any to talk about the issues in question.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-22-2012 at 05:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post

    The very act of carrying guns, in fact, often boils down to a fear of black people. I am sad to say I have been to two rural gun shops where a selling point on guns was "to take care of problems with *******". Not that this applies to this forum at large, but we're being foolish if we ignore that millions of CCW'ers carry their guns with the concept of being attacked primarily by blacks in their head.
    Unfortunately, I think you're right.

    I too don't visualise an attacker as black, for me, its always been a white guy as another poster has said. I never thought of it until I read it. Truthfully, I think more about the "what if" being a dog than a man. I walk a lot, even with a license, often at night. I have also been confronted by quite a few dogs in my time, so naturally, Thats something I think about.

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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Sitting here watching hardcore pawn and that show doesn't help perception of the city of Detroit. People are fing nasty.

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    It is not always about race as most people like to cry to get attention , IT IS about how the city has deteriorated and the crime has spread like cancer . Most people who have moved out of Detroit wants to forget about it because they had to more than likely leave a home that most were raised in and had to leave every thing they loved and thats only the lucky people , than you have the ones who are scarred from the Violence whether it is break ins or robberies or some other violent crime I can't blame people not wanting to talk about Detroit . I grew up in Detroit and will never forget it I always remember the good times and I will never forget stepping only three steps off my porch as a kid and having a knife put to my neck for a $1.00 not to mention the numerous armed robberies as a kid , Do I want to talk on here about Detroit ? Hell NO and I don't blame people not WANTING TO EITHER !!!! The city is dead and there will be NO REVIVING IT . it is a crying shame .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Perhaps you missed in the other thread where I spoke of the fact that I have numerous friends in Detroit. I have walked hundreds of miles through detroit, and I have pedaled over a thousand. I know the city quite well for being a mostly white guy who never lived there.

    As I said in the other thread, if you want to take things at face value, and not learn more about the place, that's fine. The problem I have is when we start telling people to avoid it, and without knowing much about it ourselves. With a bit of preparation, and yes by that I mean guns and shooting skill, as well as a positive attitude, a starter set of street smarts and a desire to avoid trouble, it's a magnificent city for those who wish to see it or live in it. I don't suggest anyone ever goes blatantly looking for trouble, and in detroit if someone is that stupid there is no doubt they'd find it. But if your head isn't stuck in the sand, you'll do just fine.

    Another way to put it is that non racist people, such as the great majority of those on this forum, can through no fault of their own, engage in activities which promote racial inequality. Boycotting detroit, for example, is such a thing.

    The very act of carrying guns, in fact, often boils down to a fear of black people. I am sad to say I have been to two rural gun shops where a selling point on guns was "to take care of problems with *******". Not that this applies to this forum at large, but we're being foolish if we ignore that millions of CCW'ers carry their guns with the concept of being attacked primarily by blacks in their head.

    As the front lines of the gun rights community, we should be pushing people to not only live their lives safely and sensibly, but also to not live in fear. Guns can beautifully promote equality by reducing fears of crime. But then they can also hugely have the opposite effect when gun carriers, most definitely to include suburban cops, go around trying to keep detroit and the burbs separated.

    To put it in perspective another way, I've been criminally victimized by the police many times. Walking, driving and bicycling around detroit, I've never had a serious problem. What does it say about our community if we can stand up to the cops, but are terrified of Detroit? Many people who live outside of detroit, such as sports fans, white liberals who think they can save the world, contractors, and many other groups of people, they visit the city daily. What's the difference between us and them? We tend to be much more heavily armed, and due to our public roles, getting talked to by strangers while OCing, many of us are more socially skilled, not to mention aware of our surroundings. The idea that we'd at large be scared of detroit, really, is pretty bad. I don't believe most people here actually are, but it's pretty bad that we're allowing it to look that way.
    It's a simple matter of odds, if you go in to Detroit the fact is you are more than 6 TIMES more likely to be a victim of a violent crime, or to put it another way every time you step foot in Detroit you have a 1 in 41 (Vs. 1 in 203 for Michigan) chance of being in a violent crime. 1 In 14 (Vs. 1 in 36 for Michigan) for a "non violent" crime, and that is just the official numbers, your actual odds are worse, add to that if you stand out, and your odds are just terrible.

    Even though I carry a gun, and am confident in my abilities, and would most likely prevail in any attack, it does not mean that I want to deliberately enter an area where my odds of being attacked sky rocket, it's just common sense, if I don't have to go in to Detroit I don't. I carry the gun it does not carry me, and it is not a magic talisman that will keep me from harm, to ignore danger, and just plow ahead in to an area known to be dangerous for no good reason is foolhardy at best.

    I take personal offense to the suggestion that the only reason I carry is because I'm "afraid of black people", if that's why you carry fine, but to suggest it's why I, or anyone else here carry is offensive on it's face, and does not deserve to be dignified by further comment.

    Further as I mentioned I do not avoid Detroit because I am "afraid of black people", I avoid it because it is a dangerous third world hell hole, I suggest you look up the term "projection". I would turn your last question around on you, and ask you, what does it say about a city when it's own cops are afraid of it?

    You seem intent on ignoring Detroit's crime issue, and blaming it entirely on race, how about the people of Detroit take some responsibility for their own actions?, criminals are not criminals because race made them that way, they don't rob liqueur stores, and kill people because "whitey made them do it". So I ask again, how about some personal responsibility on the part of the people of Detroit? They made the city what it is today, if they want to fix it, to lower the crime rate, and get people to come to Detroit again, they are the ones who have to fix it, because they are the ones who broke it.
    Last edited by Small_Arms_Collector; 06-23-2012 at 04:09 PM.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    If I know there is a cow pie on the path ... I'll walk around it instead of stepping in it on purpose simply because I don't want to be bothered with the hassle of cleaning crap off my shoes.

    Did I just say Detroit is a pile of crap? Yep. Which is why I won't step foot in it.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Unfortunately, I think you're right.

    I too don't visualise an attacker as black, for me, its always been a white guy as another poster has said. I never thought of it until I read it. Truthfully, I think more about the "what if" being a dog than a man. I walk a lot, even with a license, often at night. I have also been confronted by quite a few dogs in my time, so naturally, Thats something I think about.
    One of my attackers I visualize is black....weighing up to 600 pounds, and can get a bit feisty when ya get to close to the little ones.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
    One of my attackers I visualize is black....weighing up to 600 pounds, and can get a bit feisty when ya get to close to the little ones.

    This from a person that thinks removing MI Pistols is pro gun. Those .380's & 9mm's take out the 600 pound black things you described real good.


    Thanks for the laugh.

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    lol good one.

    I was just thinking that I want something bigger that a .40 for those critters as well. Bear however, is simply the best meat I have ever eaten. Fresh kill to the pot, never refrigerated or frozen. My gosh...

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    Regular Member TheShadow's Avatar
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    I have the misfortune of having to travel into Detroit on almost daily basis. I do so because I must. Would I if I did not have to? 95% of the time no. The other 5% would be on a outing to a place that I know - be it a baseball game, concert and so on. Is it worth the risk? No, but life is too short to live in fear, know yourself, what your capabilities are and what your limits are. After that it's out of your hands and in a those of a higher powers (hopefully).

    Does race play a role in my choices, yes, as I cannot stand criminals and they come in EVERY race, I suspect?

    Detroit is dead in my opinion what is left is a rotting corpse that the buzzards are working on currently. I and my family would love to be able to enjoy Detroit like past generations have, but will we ever have the chance? Doubt it.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    It's a simple matter of odds, if you go in to Detroit the fact is you are more than I take personal offense to the suggestion that the only reason I carry is because I'm "afraid of black people", if that's why you carry fine, but to suggest it's why I, or anyone else here carry is offensive on it's face, and does not deserve to be dignified by further comment.

    Further as I mentioned I do not avoid Detroit because I am "afraid of black people", I avoid it because it is a dangerous third world hell hole, I suggest you look up the term "projection". I would turn your last question around on you, and ask you, what does it say about a city when it's own cops are afraid of it?
    I did not say you personally are afraid of black people.

    You seem intent on ignoring my point, which was to explain that carry is a generally racially charged issue, and that this likely applies quite a bit less than normal to this forum. In the grand scheme of things, Detroit is only a small part of it, but being as it's a place I like, I don't mind talking about it when people bring it up.

    If you don't want to bother understanding what I'm getting at, that's your business. I have explained my point.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-24-2012 at 01:36 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Point taken...No reply from Budlight..."can't we all just get along?"

    Michigander,

    I understand your points. It seems this thread has ran it's course. Those who would have gained anything have, and the others in this tiff seem not to interested in commenting. So be it.

    Go in peace my friends, in the end we must try and remember that we (rights advocates - that's right you cannot be for just the 2A, as it is bound to the others, in particular the 1A.) We are on the same side, we may have different opinions on many items, but in the end we either stand together or we will be defeated by our foes; They are only too happy to see us fight amongst ourselves.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  21. #21
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Hey, I'm in agreement. I don't want arguments. I would suggest as I did before that the best bet would always be to contact me by PM, so as to avoid drama.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  22. #22
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    White suburban folks choose not to go to detroit frequently, and much of this has to do with hate and fear, largely due to the problems detroit has.
    Hate? Really? Fear, maybe. Not hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The very act of carrying guns, in fact, often boils down to a fear of black people.
    I don't normally go places where there are a lot of black people simply because that's not where I live, eat, and shop. I still carry.

    That being said, here's the Homicide Offender Rate/100,000 by Race in US:

    • 3.4 – White
    • 25.8 – Black
    • 3.2 – Other

    If you took blacks out of the equation, we'd be on par with Germany and lower than France. I don't have any other violent crime stats (assaults, robbery, burglary B&E) broken down by race.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I did not say you personally are afraid of black people.

    You seem intent on ignoring my point, which was to explain that carry is a generally racially charged issue, and that this likely applies quite a bit less than normal to this forum. In the grand scheme of things, Detroit is only a small part of it, but being as it's a place I like, I don't mind talking about it when people bring it up.

    If you don't want to bother understanding what I'm getting at, that's your business. I have explained my point.
    I understood what you meant, and you implied that I, and the majority of other people who carry do so only because we are "afraid of black people", and that is simply not so, and is frankly insulting (Not to mention plays in to the hands of the antis.).

  24. #24
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    I understood what you meant, and you implied that I, and the majority of other people who carry do so only because we are "afraid of black people", and that is simply not so, and is frankly insulting (Not to mention plays in to the hands of the antis.).
    I don't believe you did, because if you did, you'd have understood that I am partially agreeing with the antis, at least in terms of the racial dynamics that leftists/anti gunners often see, and right wingers/gun people tend not to.

    I explained it thoroughly, and I don't really care to go over the same thing twice. I would be happy to talk about it in person or on the phone though.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I don't believe you did, because if you did, you'd have understood that I am partially agreeing with the antis, at least in terms of the racial dynamics that leftists/anti gunners often see, and right wingers/gun people tend not to.

    I explained it thoroughly, and I don't really care to go over the same thing twice. I would be happy to talk about it in person or on the phone though.
    And they are just as wrong. You using it only strengthens there argument that they use as justification to try to disarm us.

    I carry, and I'm sure almost all carry as a way to protect ourselves from violent criminals, period. If your trying to say that you think all violent criminals are black, and projecting that on to us that's your business.

    Race and how it statistically relates to violent crime is another discussion.

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