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Thread: Waterford PD Still Confused About transport

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    Waterford PD Still Confused About transport

    I spoke with a Waterford Officer today about a barking dog, and the conversation went from the dog to my M1A magazine lying on my front seat. He asked if I had a gun in the car, pointing out the mag, and I confirmed saying that I had been shooting a couple days prior, and the gun was in the trunk. He didn't search or ask to see it, but asked about if I were transporting properly. I explained very breifly that it needed to be unloaded and cased, taken down, or in the trunk. He said he thought that I was supposed to be en route to or from a range, store, and so on. I said that I think he was referring to 231a, and the list of places you could go, but that it was not an all inclusive list, and that I was somewhat familliar with the law. I was holding my cards close. He referenced the empty holster mounted faithfully on my E-brake, I said that I used to have a CPL. He seemed satisfied, and Didn't pursue it any further.

    All in all it was a good exchange which I had initiated, seeing him and another officer on foot on a side street chatting between themselves.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 06-22-2012 at 04:32 PM.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I spoke with a Waterford Officer today about a barking dog, and the conversation went from the dog to my M1A magazine lying on my front seat. He asked if I had a gun in the car, pointing out the mag, and I confirmed saying that I had been shooting a couple days prior, and the gun was in the trunk. He didn't search or ask to see it, but asked about if I were transporting properly. I explained very breifly that it needed to be unloaded and cased, taken down, or in the trunk. He said he thought that I was supposed to be en route to or from a range, store, and so on. I said that I think he was referring to 231a, and the list of places you could go, but that it was not an all inclusive list, and that I was somewhat familliar with the law. I was holding my cards close. He referenced the empty holster mounted faithfully on my E-brake, I said that I used to have a CPL. He seemed satisfied, and Didn't pursue it any further.

    All in all it was a good exchange which I had initiated, seeing him and another officer on foot on a side street chatting between themselves.
    Neil, for god's sake you talk too much. Nothing to stop this officer from checking things out and the prosecutor thinks it's illegal and charging you. They have nothing to lose and you have a lot to lose. DON'T TALK TO POLICE.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I spoke with a Waterford Officer today about a barking dog, and the conversation went from the dog to my M1A magazine lying on my front seat. He asked if I had a gun in the car, pointing out the mag, and I confirmed saying that I had been shooting a couple days prior, and the gun was in the trunk. He didn't search or ask to see it, but asked about if I were transporting properly. I explained very breifly that it needed to be unloaded and cased, taken down, or in the trunk. He said he thought that I was supposed to be en route to or from a range, store, and so on. I said that I think he was referring to 231a, and the list of places you could go, but that it was not an all inclusive list, and that I was somewhat familliar with the law. I was holding my cards close. He referenced the empty holster mounted faithfully on my E-brake, I said that I used to have a CPL. He seemed satisfied, and Didn't pursue it any further.

    All in all it was a good exchange which I had initiated, seeing him and another officer on foot on a side street chatting between themselves.
    Stainless, why do you:
    1. talk to the police? They are not your friends. The authorities have activly sought to harass you as much as legally possible, and yet you decide to talk to them??

    2. keep a holster on your e-brake? Why would you keep a magazine lying in plain view on the seat? What you are doing is handing the officer(s) RAS that a crime is "afoot", and also providing possible Probable Cause if he can find a few more "implausabilities". If the officer argues that most people wouldn't keep a holster mounted in their car unless they were using it to carry a firearm... I don't think it would take much for an officer to justify a search as most people don't mount a holster in their car unless they carry a firearm in there. Your statement to him that you used to have a cpl tells him that you have had it taken away. In his mind, you are now a criminal. So, you drive around with a holster attached to the inside of your automobile and, since they can only be transported in the trunk, etc, the question is WHY would you have a holster there...perhaps you quicky threw it under the seat as the officer approached?? I can't think of any sane judge that would not allow this in RAS and in development of Probable Cause...
    Last edited by DrTodd; 06-22-2012 at 06:44 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    It really is just a matter of time before he's in jail.

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    He talks to the police because he wants them on his side in the future...and they LOVE him for it. Keep talking...it's worked out SOOO well for you already.

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    I was carrying legally.

    The holster is a form of protest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Neil, for god's sake you talk too much. Nothing to stop this officer from checking things out and the prosecutor thinks it's illegal and charging you. They have nothing to lose and you have a lot to lose. DON'T TALK TO POLICE.
    Waaay to much. I don't even try to teach LEOs the laws ... first, they don't care and 2nd, they don't listen and 3rd, they're to stupid to understand.

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    I wasnt trying to teach him anything, I pretended to only have an idea of what I was talking about.

    Turns out, the gun wasn't even in the car like I thought it was.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I was carrying legally.

    The holster is a form of protest.
    I understand your desire to "protest" and yes, according to what you wrote, you were legal. However, I think I know you well enough to see that your argument is plausible.

    But the court is going to base its decision on testimony and facts as they appear to people who don't understand any other reason you have ammo at hand, along with a mounted holster, unless your desire is to have a pistol in your passenger compartment. As we have seen time and time again, many "facts" are interpreted in a light favoring the prosecutor. The way things appear has been the cornerstone of every legal issue you have had to deal with since you began posting on ocdo. Why provide fodder to charge you with a crime?

    I have read through probably hundreds of ccw cases. In many of these, rather than being charged with ccw, they are instead charged with ATTEMPTED ccw, which really means that there may not be enough surety to successfully argue ccw at the time the officer stopped you, but the person most likely did ccw out of the officer's presence. Why give them an argument? In their minds, the only reason you would have a holster mounted in your car, with ammo at the ready, is because you carry in your car. With these facts established, how hard is it to see that a judge could find you guilty?

    Were I you, I would try to ensure that my time in which I am unable to get a cpl is kept as short as possible. I would remove any possibility that an officer could infer that I have carried contrary to the law. No mounted holster in my car...no ammo, loose or in a magazine, in my passenger compartment. And, I would hopefully never engage in idle chatter with a LEO.

    I place this post here not only addressed to you specifically, but to anyone without a CPL. Don't let them construct a plausible argument that you have committed a felony. This would preclude you from ever being able to possess a firearm ever again.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 06-23-2012 at 01:57 AM.

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    Not to argue, but trhe ammo was for a rifle.

    It is my understanding that in a criminal case that the burden of proof is on the state to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, that you had committed a crime. Wouldn't they then have to prove that a person was carrying ccw?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Not to argue, but trhe ammo was for a rifle.

    It is my understanding that in a criminal case that the burden of proof is on the state to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, that you had committed a crime. Wouldn't they then have to prove that a person was carrying ccw?
    Google Michigan Supreme Court opinions, choose search under case type, party name, etc, then put "ccw" in the case type search. You will find the answer to your question.

    I recall one case where ammo in the passenger compartment was a deciding factor where the pistol was never found.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 06-23-2012 at 02:28 AM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Let me add that your goal should be to stay out of court, not winning cases. Think of the money you may save.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Let me add that your goal should be to stay out of court, not winning cases. Think of the money you may save.
    Better yet, stainless' goal should be getting off the LEO's radar, and not being chatty, trying to make friends with LEO's and little girls.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    On my trip though NY recently to get to NH, not only did I lock my unloaded guns in a small vault in the trunk and take the ammo Out of the magazine and put the ammo in another unloaded box (and the magazine in the box with the gun), I searched my passenger compartment for gun paraphernalia. I saw the bolster on my driveshaft hump, and removed it (velcro). Why? Didn't want to give NY cops RAS.

    The wife and I agreed, if pulled over: don't ask/don't tell, and hell no, you may not search.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Neal, I never want to see you telling anyone to "not talk to the police" again. This is your second time in as many months. If I see you offering this advise, I will reinforce it, but call you out as a hypocrite.

    ETA: this thread more aptly named: Stainless still confused about not talking to cops.
    Last edited by TheQ; 06-23-2012 at 12:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Better yet, stainless' goal should be getting off the LEO's radar, and not being chatty, trying to make friends with LEO's and little girls.

    Regardless of who were talking about, I think its a little crossing the line to say "stop making friends with little girls" like someone is a sexual predator. I'm sure most of you adults here have neighbors with small children whom you are nice to and some of you might even watch while their parents are out of the house. So lets remain mature shall we.

    Although I'm starting to believe that's too much to ask for some of you.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    Regardless of who were talking about, I think its a little crossing the line to say "stop making friends with little girls" like someone is a sexual predator. I'm sure most of you adults here have neighbors with small children whom you are nice to and some of you might even watch while their parents are out of the house. So lets remain mature shall we.

    Although I'm starting to believe that's too much to ask for some of you.

    Agree 100%.

    In a discussion about RAS/PC and talking to the police, inserting a not-so-subtle insinuation does not lend anything to the discussion. Although I think the intent is what could be termed "biting humor", what this really does is tell me more about the person making the statement than the person to whom the comment is directed.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    On my trip though NY recently to get to NH, not only did I lock my unloaded guns in a small vault in the trunk and take the ammo Out of the magazine and put the ammo in another unloaded box (and the magazine in the box with the gun), I searched my passenger compartment for gun paraphernalia. I saw the bolster on my driveshaft hump, and removed it (velcro). Why? Didn't want to give NY cops RAS.

    The wife and I agreed, if pulled over: don't ask/don't tell, and hell no, you may not search.
    Very good example what I was talking about. Reduce the possibility that, instead of enjoying a nice vacation, you spend time and energy trying to find a bond agent to get you out of jail.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Really, where is that damned popcorn eating icon. It would be so handy.
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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I prefer this:

    Attachment 8676
    LOL, that's good. I like it. But the icon just eliminates any misconception.
    Big Gay Al
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    Regardless of who were talking about, I think its a little crossing the line to say "stop making friends with little girls" like someone is a sexual predator.
    The point is: stop doing things that look suspicious and put you on the radar, no matter how innocent and honest your motivations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Neal, I never want to see you telling anyone to "not talk to the police" again. This is your second time in as many months. If I see you offering this advise, I will reinforce it, but call you out as a hypocrite.

    ETA: this thread more aptly named: Stainless still confused about not talking to cops.
    There is a time and place. Firstly, never say always or never. After that, all things are flexible.

    Thanks Yance, and DrTodd.

    I do understand about not wanting paraphernalia to give them RAS, and I do not contest that point, however, they would notice the holster and mag pouch on my belt, and it's asking a lot to get not only my gun, but my holster, belt, pouch, keys and recorder, and put them on and off several times a day.

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    Regular Member TheShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Waaay to much. I don't even try to teach LEOs the laws ... first, they don't care and 2nd, they don't listen and 3rd, they're to stupid to understand.
    ^^^

    Above says it all.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    There is a time and place. Firstly, never say always or never. After that, all things are flexible.

    Thanks Yance, and DrTodd.

    I do understand about not wanting paraphernalia to give them RAS, and I do not contest that point, however, they would notice the holster and mag pouch on my belt, and it's asking a lot to get not only my gun, but my holster, belt, pouch, keys and recorder, and put them on and off several times a day.
    No center console?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    There is a time and place. Firstly, never say always or never. After that, all things are flexible.

    Thanks Yance, and DrTodd.

    I do understand about not wanting paraphernalia to give them RAS, and I do not contest that point, however, they would notice the holster and mag pouch on my belt, and it's asking a lot to get not only my gun, but my holster, belt, pouch, keys and recorder, and put them on and off several times a day.
    If I recall correctly, there is no law that states a holster and belt pouch can't be concealed.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 06-25-2012 at 05:52 PM.

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