Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: No Guns at Chesterfield Town Center

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    19

    No Guns at Chesterfield Town Center

    I was OCing there earlier today and was just finishing up my meal when the mall cops rolled up on their Segways and informed me that I wasn't allowed to carry there. I asked if that was the mall's policy and they said it was and then I asked why it wasn't posted at the entrances and they say it was. I said "Not the Sears entrance."(The one I came in) and the guy thought for a second and then agreed that it wasn't posted there and that wasn't there domain. I told the guy have a nice day and said I'll take my business elsewhere.

    You would think a mall on the decline like Chesterfield Town Center is would be wanting all the customers they can get but I suppose not.

    SN: Even though Sears is connected to the mall and they are in the same shopping center I don't think the malls policies apply there.

  2. #2
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    As a matter of strategic policy, one should never ask about signage.

    Asking why there are no signs will simply result in the addition of signs. Just like "gun free zones" don't stop mass murder, pleading your case for OC because there are no signs does not yield the desired result, merely the opposite: new signs added in a few days.

    Much better to simply require the person to clearly state what it is they are asking you to do, then comply, and then follow up if needed with the appropriate management and decision makers.

    TFred

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    As a matter of strategic policy, one should never ask about signage.

    Asking why there are no signs will simply result in the addition of signs. Just like "gun free zones" don't stop mass murder, pleading your case for OC because there are no signs does not yield the desired result, merely the opposite: new signs added in a few days.

    Much better to simply require the person to clearly state what it is they are asking you to do, then comply, and then follow up if needed with the appropriate management and decision makers.

    TFred
    I understand your point of view however I much prefer to know ahead of time whether or not a business intends to infringe of my ability to defend myself as opposed to finding out only after getting all the way in the mall and enjoying a nice lunch as was the case here. Additionally the signs serve to let others know that may only conceal carry so that they can also chose to take their money elsewhere as well.

  4. #4
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeiscrazy View Post
    I understand your point of view however I much prefer to know ahead of time whether or not a business intends to infringe of my ability to defend myself as opposed to finding out only after getting all the way in the mall and enjoying a nice lunch as was the case here. Additionally the signs serve to let others know that may only conceal carry so that they can also chose to take their money elsewhere as well.
    And this is where you err. If the sign says no carry, then you remove the option for concealed carriers as well. If there are no signs, then the occasional OC'er is asked to leave, but the CC'ers are left alone.

    By asking for a sign, you are making the decision not only for yourself, but for all others as well. I'm betting a good number of CC'ers would rather you not do that.

    TFred

  5. #5
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    And this is where you err. If the sign says no carry, then you remove the option for concealed carriers as well. If there are no signs, then the occasional OC'er is asked to leave, but the CC'ers are left alone.

    By asking for a sign, you are making the decision not only for yourself, but for all others as well. I'm betting a good number of CC'ers would rather you not do that.

    TFred
    Bingo and your post (#2) was excellent, TFred.

    There is an indoor mall in Manassas that has several large draw department stores: Sears, Macy's, J.C. Penny's, Target, and Walmart. None of those have any "no guns" signs posted so entering them and then into the common area does not inform. As for the common area entries, there used to be signs but the last several times I have gone into those entries, I have not seen any. Perhaps they moved their locations or just took them down.... I don't know but I certainly an not going to go out of my way looking for them IF they are there. So just to be on the safe side, when I enter the common area, I conceal my little friend. I do OC into the department stores and have never had a problem.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  6. #6
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Same with Short Pump which is very much anti. I OC'ed at Dicks the other day because Dicks does not have a sign and is separate from the common areas.

    The OP should assume most large malls are anti, have very small signs with rules posted at the common entrances, high enough to be impossible to read and prohibiting weapons, photography and recording.

    That's pretty much standard fare.

  7. #7
    Regular Member paramedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Waycross, GA
    Posts
    118
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Bingo and your post (#2) was excellent, TFred.

    There is an indoor mall in Manassas that has several large draw department stores: Sears, Macy's, J.C. Penny's, Target, and Walmart. None of those have any "no guns" signs posted so entering them and then into the common area does not inform. As for the common area entries, there used to be signs but the last several times I have gone into those entries, I have not seen any. Perhaps they moved their locations or just took them down.... I don't know but I certainly an not going to go out of my way looking for them IF they are there. So just to be on the safe side, when I enter the common area, I conceal my little friend. I do OC into the department stores and have never had a problem.
    Yes I know very well about that, I posted on here a while back about my encounter with Paul Blart. I am not sure how to look it up myself(I know alot more about guns than I do computers and web sites) But I sure you probably know how to do it, I even asked the guard to show me the sign, he followed us all the way to the entrance and them dissapeared. I called management and told that how displeased I was that their security guard lied and then would not back it up, never set foot in the mall again.

  8. #8
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic View Post
    Yes I know very well about that, I posted on here a while back about my encounter with Paul Blart. I am not sure how to look it up myself(I know alot more about guns than I do computers and web sites) But I sure you probably know how to do it, I even asked the guard to show me the sign, he followed us all the way to the entrance and them dissapeared. I called management and told that how displeased I was that their security guard lied and then would not back it up, never set foot in the mall again.
    I will avoid malls where there are signs posted in locations where they are easily seen. In those which have signs but are not obvious or are someplace you would have to make a conscious effort to locate, well as far as I'm concerned, there's no sign. This does not mean that I will be obstinate in the face of a request to leave the premises. Far from it. If so asked, and I have never been asked, I will leave promptly. But I am not about to search around for some remote sign that is not in a prominent location and takes detective work to find it.

    As for the large stores, as far as I'm concerned, they are open to my business and my money. No signs means they have a chance to separate me from some dollars. If they post, they lose this.

    I went to a theater nine days ago with my wife and both of my grandsons. I saw no signs in obvious locations so I carried into the theater. Not being totally sure, I chose to conceal. No harm done and no one was the wiser. I didn't see any signs on the way in or the way out.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 06-24-2012 at 05:07 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  9. #9
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    And this is where you err. If the sign says no carry, then you remove the option for concealed carriers as well. If there are no signs, then the occasional OC'er is asked to leave, but the CC'ers are left alone.

    By asking for a sign, you are making the decision not only for yourself, but for all others as well. I'm betting a good number of CC'ers would rather you not do that.

    TFred
    So what you are saying is that in you view it's OK for CCers to commit tresspassing, because there is less likelihood that they would get caught carrying in a posted venue?

    That's so very "NIMBY" of you.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-23-2012 at 04:44 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  10. #10
    Regular Member Lincoln7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Isle of Wight County, Virginia
    Posts
    143
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So what you are saying is that in your view it's OK for CCers to commit tresspassing, because there is less likelihood that they would get caught carrying in a posted venue?

    That's so very "NIMBY" of you.
    Carrying a firearm onto property posted 'No Firearms' is not trespassing.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So what you are saying is that in you view it's OK for CCers to commit tresspassing, because there is less likelihood that they would get caught carrying in a posted venue?

    That's so very "NIMBY" of you.
    No you completely missed my point. 180 degrees.

    What I said was, please do NOT ask about signs, because that will cause signs to be posted, which will affect all carriers INCLUDING cc'ers.

    If there is no sign, then cc'ers are not known and are not asked to leave.

    TFred

  12. #12
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
    Carrying a firearm onto property posted 'No Firearms' is not trespassing.
    Disagree. Its a condition of entry.

    § 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.


    You can dance any way that you want around that, but I think its pretty clear that a "no guns" signs translates into "you are not permitted on our property with a firearm".


    I won't even get into 18.2-308 O
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  13. #13
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    on a rock in the james river
    Posts
    1,453
    I think I was OC'ing in the Barnes and Noble at Chesterfield Mall around Christmas.

    I entered from the stores dedicated doors to the parking lot. Stood in line with a VERY LARGE Chesterfield Police officer.

    I think I left through the store's entrance to the food court area, but can't recall if I shopped more or left through the mall doors. I was probably shopping.

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
    Carrying a firearm onto property posted 'No Firearms' is not trespassing.
    It really isn't any different than the signs that say "No Trespassing after dark" or "No Trespassing after business hours" Lincoln.

    The really odd thing is that according to the letter of the statute, you don't even have to see the sign as long as it's posted where you should have seen it.

  15. #15
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Disagree. Its a condition of entry.

    [i]§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

    ...

    You can dance any way that you want around that, but I think its pretty clear that a "no guns" signs translates into "you are not permitted on our property with a firearm".


    I won't even get into 18.2-308 O
    IMNSHO, 18.2-308 (O) has nothing to do with anything other than to plainly state that a CHP does not over-ride a "no trespassing" command. No more, no less.

    TFred

  16. #16
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It really isn't any different than the signs that say "No Trespassing after dark" or "No Trespassing after business hours" Lincoln.

    The really odd thing is that according to the letter of the statute, you don't even have to see the sign as long as it's posted where you should have seen it.
    What happened to proof of notice? Does that not exist?

    TFred

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    What happened to proof of notice? Does that not exist?

    TFred
    Not by the letter of the law:

    post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen,

  18. #18
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,553
    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
    Carrying a firearm onto property posted 'No Firearms' is not trespassing.
    I agree.

    Most lawyers that I've seen post on the topic on the various gun forums take that same position.

    A few folks will disagree, but I've never been able to follow their reasoning.

  19. #19
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,553
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Disagree. Its a condition of entry.
    How do you reach that conclusion?

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    How do you reach that conclusion?
    Have you ever read the back of the ticket they give you when you go to the movies or the ball game? Did you think they give that piece of paper to you so you can prove you paid the price of admission for the specific movie you said you wanted to see/ballgame? The "conditions of admission" are provided to you on that ticket. The same applies to entering malls - they set up and post the conditions under which you are permitted to enter and remain on private property.

    While there are some restrictions that are imposed on mall owners/operators regarding 1A issues, there is no "right to shop" that they could infringe by saying you cannot have a firearm on their property. And since they are not "The Government" they cannot be accused of infringing on your 2A rights.

    If you can figure out how to convince a court that your OCing at the mall was "expressive political speech" you can probably have a shot at having your lawsuit heard. My guess, though, is you will be told you could have expressed your political speech via signs/banners/leaflets just as well as by wearing a sidearm on your hip. From our perspective that sucks, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

    If you know the mall does not allow firearms because you have seen the "NO GUNZ" sign(s), is it necessary or polite to make them come to you specifically and threaten to call the cops if you don't comply with the sign? Do you believe the judge will say that up until you told the cop you were not going to abide by the sign you were not trespassing but being merely obstinant?

    Besides, is that the impression you want to create?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  21. #21
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Have you ever read the back of the ticket they give you when you go to the movies or the ball game? Did you think they give that piece of paper to you so you can prove you paid the price of admission for the specific movie you said you wanted to see/ballgame? The "conditions of admission" are provided to you on that ticket. The same applies to entering malls - they set up and post the conditions under which you are permitted to enter and remain on private property.

    While there are some restrictions that are imposed on mall owners/operators regarding 1A issues, there is no "right to shop" that they could infringe by saying you cannot have a firearm on their property. And since they are not "The Government" they cannot be accused of infringing on your 2A rights.

    If you can figure out how to convince a court that your OCing at the mall was "expressive political speech" you can probably have a shot at having your lawsuit heard. My guess, though, is you will be told you could have expressed your political speech via signs/banners/leaflets just as well as by wearing a sidearm on your hip. From our perspective that sucks, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

    If you know the mall does not allow firearms because you have seen the "NO GUNZ" sign(s), is it necessary or polite to make them come to you specifically and threaten to call the cops if you don't comply with the sign? Do you believe the judge will say that up until you told the cop you were not going to abide by the sign you were not trespassing but being merely obstinant?

    Besides, is that the impression you want to create?

    stay safe.
    While have had a few disagreements in the past, I have to admit that this post is very lucid and articulate... perhaps the best of the lot on this thread.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  22. #22
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,553
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Have you ever read the back of the ticket they give you when you go to the movies or the ball game? Did you think they give that piece of paper to you so you can prove you paid the price of admission for the specific movie you said you wanted to see/ballgame? The "conditions of admission" are provided to you on that ticket. The same applies to entering malls - they set up and post the conditions under which you are permitted to enter and remain on private property.

    While there are some restrictions that are imposed on mall owners/operators regarding 1A issues, there is no "right to shop" that they could infringe by saying you cannot have a firearm on their property. And since they are not "The Government" they cannot be accused of infringing on your 2A rights.

    If you can figure out how to convince a court that your OCing at the mall was "expressive political speech" you can probably have a shot at having your lawsuit heard. My guess, though, is you will be told you could have expressed your political speech via signs/banners/leaflets just as well as by wearing a sidearm on your hip. From our perspective that sucks, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

    If you know the mall does not allow firearms because you have seen the "NO GUNZ" sign(s), is it necessary or polite to make them come to you specifically and threaten to call the cops if you don't comply with the sign? Do you believe the judge will say that up until you told the cop you were not going to abide by the sign you were not trespassing but being merely obstinant?

    Besides, is that the impression you want to create?

    stay safe.
    I've never seen "conditions of admission" verbiage on a sign, but I haven't looked for it either, especially when walking into a mall or store.

    And I'm not sure what spawned the 2A tangent; I agree with all you said on that.

    I'm talking about property owners' rules, e.g. no cell phone use while ordering sandwiches, no guns, no more than 10 items in the express lane, no disruptive behavior in the mall. Just like I can on my property, the store owner can enforce their rules how they see fit -- "Stop that, don't do it again," "Don't worry about it, I don't mind," "You have to leave," etc.

    If asked to leave, we leave. I've been called over to the express lane with my 10+ items because no one was in her line. I've been told I could carry in a store despite the "no loaded guns" sign because the owner knew me and didn't mind if I carried. Was I trespassing in those cases? I don't believe I was.

    The trespassing code refers to going on or remaining on property after being told otherwise. Cops I've discussed this with said they won't cite for trespassing in an open-to-the-public place like a store without telling someone they have to leave and having them refuse. I'd be surprised to see them skip that part of the code and still cite.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    I've never seen "conditions of admission" verbiage on a sign, but I haven't looked for it either, especially when walking into a mall or store.

    And I'm not sure what spawned the 2A tangent; I agree with all you said on that.

    I'm talking about property owners' rules, e.g. no cell phone use while ordering sandwiches, no guns, no more than 10 items in the express lane, no disruptive behavior in the mall. Just like I can on my property, the store owner can enforce their rules how they see fit -- "Stop that, don't do it again," "Don't worry about it, I don't mind," "You have to leave," etc.

    If asked to leave, we leave. I've been called over to the express lane with my 10+ items because no one was in her line. I've been told I could carry in a store despite the "no loaded guns" sign because the owner knew me and didn't mind if I carried. Was I trespassing in those cases? I don't believe I was.

    The trespassing code refers to going on or remaining on property after being told otherwise. Cops I've discussed this with said they won't cite for trespassing in an open-to-the-public place like a store without telling someone they have to leave and having them refuse. I'd be surprised to see them skip that part of the code and still cite.
    This makes a lot of sense.

    Look at that long list of "conditions" on most big malls. Imagine the impact of negative publicity if they prosecuted people for trespassing for breaking any of those often quite silly rules. In this economy you can probably bet that they don't need to be tossing customers in jail for merely not seeing and reading the fine print on a sign.

    TFred

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Cops generally have no authority to arrest on private property unless they haave been invited onto the property. They do not have the authority to arrest for a misdemeanor unless it is committed in their presence. Cops hate filling out reports and attending court on what should be a day off. Thus, they will ask the person to please do what the property owner/agent says and leave. Decide not to and you have committed a misdemeanor in their presence and thwey can/will arrest you - as much in punishment for being obstinant and forcing them to fill out reports and attend court on what should have been a day off, as for violating the law.

    I give up on repeating what the Code of Virginia says - we all know that cops have great discretion on what they do in response to behavior described in the Code, but that's not the point. The point is what the law says.

    There is no requirement for the words "conditions of admission" to be written anywhere, as long as the conditions are posted. Playing semantics games with me will get you nowhere, as it is well-known I love those games.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  25. #25
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Cops generally have no authority to arrest on private property unless they haave been invited onto the property. They do not have the authority to arrest for a misdemeanor unless it is committed in their presence. Cops hate filling out reports and attending court on what should be a day off. Thus, they will ask the person to please do what the property owner/agent says and leave. Decide not to and you have committed a misdemeanor in their presence and thwey can/will arrest you - as much in punishment for being obstinant and forcing them to fill out reports and attend court on what should have been a day off, as for violating the law.

    I give up on repeating what the Code of Virginia says - we all know that cops have great discretion on what they do in response to behavior described in the Code, but that's not the point. The point is what the law says.

    There is no requirement for the words "conditions of admission" to be written anywhere, as long as the conditions are posted. Playing semantics games with me will get you nowhere, as it is well-known I love those games.

    stay safe.
    This is why when you enter a business establishment which doesn't have any NO GUNS signs posted where you can see them and at some point you are told no guns are allowed and are asked to leave, you should just leave. Thank the individual for telling you, (whether or not you chose to let them know that you will not be spending your money there is your decision), and then just exit the premises. It serves no one's interests, certainly not ours in the gun culture, to stay and argue. Just leave. No muss, no fuss.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •