No Guns at Chesterfield Town Center

Jakeiscrazy · Jun 22, 2012

I was OCing there earlier today and was just finishing up my meal when the mall cops rolled up on their Segways and informed me that I wasn't allowed to carry there. I asked if that was the mall's policy and they said it was and then I asked why it wasn't posted at the entrances and they say it was. I said "Not the Sears entrance."(The one I came in) and the guy thought for a second and then agreed that it wasn't posted there and that wasn't there domain. I told the guy have a nice day and said I'll take my business elsewhere.

You would think a mall on the decline like Chesterfield Town Center is would be wanting all the customers they can get but I suppose not.

SN: Even though Sears is connected to the mall and they are in the same shopping center I don't think the malls policies apply there.

TFred · Jun 22, 2012

As a matter of strategic policy, one should never ask about signage.

Asking why there are no signs will simply result in the addition of signs. Just like "gun free zones" don't stop mass murder, pleading your case for OC because there are no signs does not yield the desired result, merely the opposite: new signs added in a few days.

Much better to simply require the person to clearly state what it is they are asking you to do, then comply, and then follow up if needed with the appropriate management and decision makers.

TFred

Jakeiscrazy · Jun 22, 2012

TFred said:
As a matter of strategic policy, one should never ask about signage.

Asking why there are no signs will simply result in the addition of signs. Just like "gun free zones" don't stop mass murder, pleading your case for OC because there are no signs does not yield the desired result, merely the opposite: new signs added in a few days.

Much better to simply require the person to clearly state what it is they are asking you to do, then comply, and then follow up if needed with the appropriate management and decision makers.

TFred

I understand your point of view however I much prefer to know ahead of time whether or not a business intends to infringe of my ability to defend myself as opposed to finding out only after getting all the way in the mall and enjoying a nice lunch as was the case here. Additionally the signs serve to let others know that may only conceal carry so that they can also chose to take their money elsewhere as well.

TFred · Jun 23, 2012

Jakeiscrazy said:
I understand your point of view however I much prefer to know ahead of time whether or not a business intends to infringe of my ability to defend myself as opposed to finding out only after getting all the way in the mall and enjoying a nice lunch as was the case here. Additionally the signs serve to let others know that may only conceal carry so that they can also chose to take their money elsewhere as well.

And this is where you err. If the sign says no carry, then you remove the option for concealed carriers as well. If there are no signs, then the occasional OC'er is asked to leave, but the CC'ers are left alone.

By asking for a sign, you are making the decision not only for yourself, but for all others as well. I'm betting a good number of CC'ers would rather you not do that.

TFred

SouthernBoy · Jun 23, 2012

TFred said:
And this is where you err. If the sign says no carry, then you remove the option for concealed carriers as well. If there are no signs, then the occasional OC'er is asked to leave, but the CC'ers are left alone.

By asking for a sign, you are making the decision not only for yourself, but for all others as well. I'm betting a good number of CC'ers would rather you not do that.

TFred

Bingo and your post (#2) was excellent, TFred.

There is an indoor mall in Manassas that has several large draw department stores: Sears, Macy's, J.C. Penny's, Target, and Walmart. None of those have any "no guns" signs posted so entering them and then into the common area does not inform. As for the common area entries, there used to be signs but the last several times I have gone into those entries, I have not seen any. Perhaps they moved their locations or just took them down.... I don't know but I certainly an not going to go out of my way looking for them IF they are there. So just to be on the safe side, when I enter the common area, I conceal my little friend. I do OC into the department stores and have never had a problem.

peter nap · Jun 23, 2012

Same with Short Pump which is very much anti. I OC'ed at Dicks the other day because Dicks does not have a sign and is separate from the common areas.

The OP should assume most large malls are anti, have very small signs with rules posted at the common entrances, high enough to be impossible to read and prohibiting weapons, photography and recording.

That's pretty much standard fare.

paramedic · Jun 23, 2012

SouthernBoy said:
Bingo and your post (#2) was excellent, TFred.

There is an indoor mall in Manassas that has several large draw department stores: Sears, Macy's, J.C. Penny's, Target, and Walmart. None of those have any "no guns" signs posted so entering them and then into the common area does not inform. As for the common area entries, there used to be signs but the last several times I have gone into those entries, I have not seen any. Perhaps they moved their locations or just took them down.... I don't know but I certainly an not going to go out of my way looking for them IF they are there. So just to be on the safe side, when I enter the common area, I conceal my little friend. I do OC into the department stores and have never had a problem.

Yes I know very well about that, I posted on here a while back about my encounter with Paul Blart. I am not sure how to look it up myself(I know alot more about guns than I do computers and web sites) But I sure you probably know how to do it, I even asked the guard to show me the sign, he followed us all the way to the entrance and them dissapeared. I called management and told that how displeased I was that their security guard lied and then would not back it up, never set foot in the mall again.

SouthernBoy · Jun 23, 2012

paramedic said:
Yes I know very well about that, I posted on here a while back about my encounter with Paul Blart. I am not sure how to look it up myself(I know alot more about guns than I do computers and web sites) But I sure you probably know how to do it, I even asked the guard to show me the sign, he followed us all the way to the entrance and them dissapeared. I called management and told that how displeased I was that their security guard lied and then would not back it up, never set foot in the mall again.

I will avoid malls where there are signs posted in locations where they are easily seen. In those which have signs but are not obvious or are someplace you would have to make a conscious effort to locate, well as far as I'm concerned, there's no sign. This does not mean that I will be obstinate in the face of a request to leave the premises. Far from it. If so asked, and I have never been asked, I will leave promptly. But I am not about to search around for some remote sign that is not in a prominent location and takes detective work to find it.

As for the large stores, as far as I'm concerned, they are open to my business and my money. No signs means they have a chance to separate me from some dollars. If they post, they lose this.

I went to a theater nine days ago with my wife and both of my grandsons. I saw no signs in obvious locations so I carried into the theater. Not being totally sure, I chose to conceal. No harm done and no one was the wiser. I didn't see any signs on the way in or the way out.

Dreamer · Jun 23, 2012

TFred said:
And this is where you err. If the sign says no carry, then you remove the option for concealed carriers as well. If there are no signs, then the occasional OC'er is asked to leave, but the CC'ers are left alone.

By asking for a sign, you are making the decision not only for yourself, but for all others as well. I'm betting a good number of CC'ers would rather you not do that.

TFred

So what you are saying is that in you view it's OK for CCers to commit tresspassing, because there is less likelihood that they would get caught carrying in a posted venue?

That's so very "NIMBY" of you.

Lincoln7 · Jun 23, 2012

Dreamer said:
So what you are saying is that in your view it's OK for CCers to commit tresspassing, because there is less likelihood that they would get caught carrying in a posted venue?

That's so very "NIMBY" of you.

Carrying a firearm onto property posted 'No Firearms' is not trespassing.

TFred · Jun 23, 2012

Dreamer said:
So what you are saying is that in you view it's OK for CCers to commit tresspassing, because there is less likelihood that they would get caught carrying in a posted venue?

That's so very "NIMBY" of you.

No you completely missed my point. 180 degrees.

What I said was, please do NOT ask about signs, because that will cause signs to be posted, which will affect all carriers INCLUDING cc'ers.

If there is no sign, then cc'ers are not known and are not asked to leave.

TFred

ProShooter · Jun 23, 2012

Lincoln7 said:
Carrying a firearm onto property posted 'No Firearms' is not trespassing.

Disagree. Its a condition of entry.

§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.

You can dance any way that you want around that, but I think its pretty clear that a "no guns" signs translates into "you are not permitted on our property with a firearm".

I won't even get into 18.2-308 O

riverrat10k · Jun 23, 2012

I think I was OC'ing in the Barnes and Noble at Chesterfield Mall around Christmas.

I entered from the stores dedicated doors to the parking lot. Stood in line with a VERY LARGE Chesterfield Police officer.

I think I left through the store's entrance to the food court area, but can't recall if I shopped more or left through the mall doors. I was probably shopping.

peter nap · Jun 23, 2012

Lincoln7 said:
Carrying a firearm onto property posted 'No Firearms' is not trespassing.

It really isn't any different than the signs that say "No Trespassing after dark" or "No Trespassing after business hours" Lincoln.

The really odd thing is that according to the letter of the statute, you don't even have to see the sign as long as it's posted where you should have seen it.

TFred · Jun 24, 2012

ProShooter said:
Disagree. Its a condition of entry.

§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

...

You can dance any way that you want around that, but I think its pretty clear that a "no guns" signs translates into "you are not permitted on our property with a firearm".

I won't even get into 18.2-308 O

IMNSHO, 18.2-308 (O) has nothing to do with anything other than to plainly state that a CHP does not over-ride a "no trespassing" command. No more, no less.

TFred

TFred · Jun 24, 2012

peter nap said:
It really isn't any different than the signs that say "No Trespassing after dark" or "No Trespassing after business hours" Lincoln.

The really odd thing is that according to the letter of the statute, you don't even have to see the sign as long as it's posted where you should have seen it.

What happened to proof of notice? Does that not exist?

TFred

peter nap · Jun 24, 2012

TFred said:
What happened to proof of notice? Does that not exist?

TFred

Not by the letter of the law:

post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen,

DrMark · Jun 24, 2012

Lincoln7 said:
Carrying a firearm onto property posted 'No Firearms' is not trespassing.

I agree.

Most lawyers that I've seen post on the topic on the various gun forums take that same position.

A few folks will disagree, but I've never been able to follow their reasoning.

DrMark · Jun 24, 2012

ProShooter said:
Disagree. Its a condition of entry.

How do you reach that conclusion?

skidmark · Jun 24, 2012

DrMark said:
How do you reach that conclusion?

Have you ever read the back of the ticket they give you when you go to the movies or the ball game? Did you think they give that piece of paper to you so you can prove you paid the price of admission for the specific movie you said you wanted to see/ballgame? The "conditions of admission" are provided to you on that ticket. The same applies to entering malls - they set up and post the conditions under which you are permitted to enter and remain on private property.

While there are some restrictions that are imposed on mall owners/operators regarding 1A issues, there is no "right to shop" that they could infringe by saying you cannot have a firearm on their property. And since they are not "The Government" they cannot be accused of infringing on your 2A rights.

If you can figure out how to convince a court that your OCing at the mall was "expressive political speech" you can probably have a shot at having your lawsuit heard. My guess, though, is you will be told you could have expressed your political speech via signs/banners/leaflets just as well as by wearing a sidearm on your hip. From our perspective that sucks, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

If you know the mall does not allow firearms because you have seen the "NO GUNZ" sign(s), is it necessary or polite to make them come to you specifically and threaten to call the cops if you don't comply with the sign? Do you believe the judge will say that up until you told the cop you were not going to abide by the sign you were not trespassing but being merely obstinant?

Besides, is that the impression you want to create?

stay safe.

No Guns at Chesterfield Town Center

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