No Guns at Chesterfield Town Center

skidmark said:

Have you ever read the back of the ticket they give you when you go to the movies or the ball game? Did you think they give that piece of paper to you so you can prove you paid the price of admission for the specific movie you said you wanted to see/ballgame? The "conditions of admission" are provided to you on that ticket. The same applies to entering malls - they set up and post the conditions under which you are permitted to enter and remain on private property.

While there are some restrictions that are imposed on mall owners/operators regarding 1A issues, there is no "right to shop" that they could infringe by saying you cannot have a firearm on their property. And since they are not "The Government" they cannot be accused of infringing on your 2A rights.

If you can figure out how to convince a court that your OCing at the mall was "expressive political speech" you can probably have a shot at having your lawsuit heard. My guess, though, is you will be told you could have expressed your political speech via signs/banners/leaflets just as well as by wearing a sidearm on your hip. From our perspective that sucks, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

If you know the mall does not allow firearms because you have seen the "NO GUNZ" sign(s), is it necessary or polite to make them come to you specifically and threaten to call the cops if you don't comply with the sign? Do you believe the judge will say that up until you told the cop you were not going to abide by the sign you were not trespassing but being merely obstinant?

Besides, is that the impression you want to create?

stay safe.

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skidmark said:

Have you ever read the back of the ticket they give you when you go to the movies or the ball game? Did you think they give that piece of paper to you so you can prove you paid the price of admission for the specific movie you said you wanted to see/ballgame? The "conditions of admission" are provided to you on that ticket. The same applies to entering malls - they set up and post the conditions under which you are permitted to enter and remain on private property.

While there are some restrictions that are imposed on mall owners/operators regarding 1A issues, there is no "right to shop" that they could infringe by saying you cannot have a firearm on their property. And since they are not "The Government" they cannot be accused of infringing on your 2A rights.

If you can figure out how to convince a court that your OCing at the mall was "expressive political speech" you can probably have a shot at having your lawsuit heard. My guess, though, is you will be told you could have expressed your political speech via signs/banners/leaflets just as well as by wearing a sidearm on your hip. From our perspective that sucks, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

If you know the mall does not allow firearms because you have seen the "NO GUNZ" sign(s), is it necessary or polite to make them come to you specifically and threaten to call the cops if you don't comply with the sign? Do you believe the judge will say that up until you told the cop you were not going to abide by the sign you were not trespassing but being merely obstinant?

Besides, is that the impression you want to create?

stay safe.

Click to expand...

DrMark said:

I've never seen "conditions of admission" verbiage on a sign, but I haven't looked for it either, especially when walking into a mall or store.

And I'm not sure what spawned the 2A tangent; I agree with all you said on that.

I'm talking about property owners' rules, e.g. no cell phone use while ordering sandwiches, no guns, no more than 10 items in the express lane, no disruptive behavior in the mall. Just like I can on my property, the store owner can enforce their rules how they see fit -- "Stop that, don't do it again," "Don't worry about it, I don't mind," "You have to leave," etc.

If asked to leave, we leave. I've been called over to the express lane with my 10+ items because no one was in her line. I've been told I could carry in a store despite the "no loaded guns" sign because the owner knew me and didn't mind if I carried. Was I trespassing in those cases? I don't believe I was.

The trespassing code refers to going on or remaining on property after being told otherwise. Cops I've discussed this with said they won't cite for trespassing in an open-to-the-public place like a store without telling someone they have to leave and having them refuse. I'd be surprised to see them skip that part of the code and still cite.

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skidmark said:

Cops generally have no authority to arrest on private property unless they haave been invited onto the property. They do not have the authority to arrest for a misdemeanor unless it is committed in their presence. Cops hate filling out reports and attending court on what should be a day off. Thus, they will ask the person to please do what the property owner/agent says and leave. Decide not to and you have committed a misdemeanor in their presence and thwey can/will arrest you - as much in punishment for being obstinant and forcing them to fill out reports and attend court on what should have been a day off, as for violating the law.

I give up on repeating what the Code of Virginia says - we all know that cops have great discretion on what they do in response to behavior described in the Code, but that's not the point. The point is what the law says.

There is no requirement for the words "conditions of admission" to be written anywhere, as long as the conditions are posted. Playing semantics games with me will get you nowhere, as it is well-known I love those games.

stay safe.

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SouthernBoy said:

This is why when you enter a business establishment which doesn't have any NO GUNS signs posted where you can see them and at some point you are told no guns are allowed and are asked to leave, you should just leave. Thank the individual for telling you, (whether or not you chose to let them know that you will not be spending your money there is your decision), and then just exit the premises. It serves no one's interests, certainly not ours in the gun culture, to stay and argue. Just leave. No muss, no fuss.

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The Wolfhound said:

When posting property to exclude hunters/trespassers, is there a standard to which it must be posted? Sort of: a sign facing out of the property every 50 feet around the property line or any similar standard? In my work, I am responcible for some "country property" and need to be sure we are up to standard.

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