Getting ready to research "check points"

I've always wondered what our rights are, when your carrying, and pull up too a check point. Are we covered under 4th or do we have to comply?

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I have seen other posts that get into checkpoints. Off the top of my head, if you can legally turn around (not breaking any U turn laws etc) and avoid the check point technically that isn't sufficient RAS for them to chase you down. Of course the police may not see it that way and may chase someone down that attempts to avoid the checkpoint anyway. :-(

If you are driving and are asked for license and registration you need to provide them since driving is a priviledge not a right. Other than that you don't have to answer any questions. Depending on what they are looking for (DUI, license check, legitimate-bad-guy-on-the-run) your silence or non-cooperation may have the LEO take you downtown. This pain-in-the-a$$ technique in my opinion is simple intimidation since you may have kids in the car with you and don't want a social services hassle etc just to make your point.

My fear isn't really state police or sheriff deputies around here since they mostly follow the law or can be sued into lawful compliance. My fear is TSA viper units that are unconstitutional in the first place being allowed to roam the roadways stopping whomever they want. Suing a local (virginia) LEO department for violating your rights can be time consuming and costly but nothing in compared to the federal gubbermant! Since our governor already thinks drones are great for Virginia and I have heard of TSA viper units at truck weigh stations I don't know how long it will be before we all run into something like that. We will need to support (financially) whomever runs into it first and sues so that we can nip it in the bud. That is of course assuming constitutionally literate judges and a judicial process that works.

45acpForMe said:

I have seen other posts that get into checkpoints. Off the top of my head, if you can legally turn around (not breaking any U turn laws etc) and avoid the check point technically that isn't sufficient RAS for them to chase you down. Of course the police may not see it that way and may chase someone down that attempts to avoid the checkpoint anyway. :-(

If you are driving and are asked for license and registration you need to provide them since driving is a priviledge not a right. Other than that you don't have to answer any questions. Depending on what they are looking for (DUI, license check, legitimate-bad-guy-on-the-run) your silence or non-cooperation may have the LEO take you downtown. This pain-in-the-a$$ technique in my opinion is simple intimidation since you may have kids in the car with you and don't want a social services hassle etc just to make your point.

My fear isn't really state police or sheriff deputies around here since they mostly follow the law or can be sued into lawful compliance. My fear is TSA viper units that are unconstitutional in the first place being allowed to roam the roadways stopping whomever they want. Suing a local (virginia) LEO department for violating your rights can be time consuming and costly but nothing in compared to the federal gubbermant! Since our governor already thinks drones are great for Virginia and I have heard of TSA viper units at truck weigh stations I don't know how long it will be before we all run into something like that. We will need to support (financially) whomever runs into it first and sues so that we can nip it in the bud. That is of course assuming constitutionally literate judges and a judicial process that works.

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Pretty much everything you said. The check points have to be planned and signed off on in advance. They don't have to pull every car but do have to have the way cars are selected in the plan. (Like every 3rd car).

VDOT uses the same system at the Ferry (Don't tell anyone, it's National Security)
Every morning VDOT writes a number down for the Guards and they pull every car that hits that number.

I agree 100% about the TSA. I haven't heard of any VIPER units in Virginia but it's only a matter of time.
They are the biggest threat to freedom in this country in existence.
I see they've asked Congress to allow them to handle ALL mass transit now.

peter nap said:

Pretty much everything you said. The check points have to be planned and signed off on in advance. They don't have to pull every car but do have to have the way cars are selected in the plan. (Like every 3rd car).

VDOT uses the same system at the Ferry (Don't tell anyone, it's National Security)
Every morning VDOT writes a number down for the Guards and they pull every car that hits that number.

I agree 100% about the TSA. I haven't heard of any VIPER units in Virginia but it's only a matter of time.
They are the biggest threat to freedom in this country in existence.
I see they've asked Congress to allow them to handle ALL mass transit now.

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It has already happened even though I found out about it after the fact.

http://readersupportednews.org/opin...mission-creep-is-making-the-us-a-police-state

Except even that doesn't work anymore. Earlier this month, the VIPRs came out again in Virginia and infested the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel, also known as the stretch of Interstate 64 connecting the cities of Hampton and Norfolk. Spokesmen admitted again that the exercise was a "routine sweep", not a response to any specific threat. Official news outlets admitted the checkpoint caused a delay (further exacerbated by a couple of accidents), but didn't say for how long. Local commenters at the Travel Underground forums reported delays of 90 minutes.


http://www.prisonplanet.com/after-huge-ammo-buy-dhs-purchases-bullet-resistant-booths.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/dont-be-alarmed-army-trains-mps-to-drive-tanks-on-u-s-streets.html

So TSA is going to have bullet proof mobile units and possibly tanks backing them up???

45acpForMe said:

It has already happened even though I found out about it after the fact.

http://readersupportednews.org/opin...mission-creep-is-making-the-us-a-police-state

Except even that doesn't work anymore. Earlier this month, the VIPRs came out again in Virginia and infested the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel, also known as the stretch of Interstate 64 connecting the cities of Hampton and Norfolk. Spokesmen admitted again that the exercise was a "routine sweep", not a response to any specific threat. Official news outlets admitted the checkpoint caused a delay (further exacerbated by a couple of accidents), but didn't say for how long. Local commenters at the Travel Underground forums reported delays of 90 minutes.


http://www.prisonplanet.com/after-huge-ammo-buy-dhs-purchases-bullet-resistant-booths.html

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Figures..

Since they can't really work the open highways the problems will be with toll roads, bridges, bus stations, subways, trains and truckstops. NOVA will be hit the worst and Tidewater next.

Unless the laws and Constitution change, all they can do on refusal is tell you to turn around. Can't do that on rt 360 ...yet anyway.

More on bulletproof checkpoints and armored vehicles

With their Vipr xrays they will easily see that we are armed (not that it would matter) so how does one fight the system???




http://www.prisonplanet.com/whats-t...ed-checkpoint-booths-and-radiation-pills.html

Bullet-proof roadside checkpoint booths
If you’re still not convinced that the USA is rapidly devolving into a fascist police state with TSA and DHS goons feeling your genitals at the airport and randomly searching your bags on city busses, DHS has now bought tens of millions of dollars worth of bullet-proof roadway checkpoint booths featuring level-3 bulletproof glass (http://www.prisonplanet.com/after-huge-ammo-buy-dhs-purchases-bullet-…).
It forces us to ask the obvious question: For what purpose does the DHS need thousands of bulletproof checkpoint booths?
Once again, the answer is obvious: To quickly erect “show us your papers” checkpoints on roadways, highways and key traffic points nationwide.
Oh, by the way, DHS is also acquiring monstrous assault vehicles which you can see pictured here:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/homeland-security-unveils-monstrous-swat-…


A relatively monstrous SWAT style truck leads us to a whole new blob of police state developments, busy hands with little to do and a lot of hardware to do it.

45acpForMe said:

With their Vipr xrays they will easily see that we are armed (not that it would matter) so how does one fight the system???
http://www.prisonplanet.com/whats-t...ed-checkpoint-booths-and-radiation-pills.html

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Yes...that is the question we are all faced with!
If you come up with a good answer, let me know cause I don't have a clue.

45acpForMe said:

With their Vipr xrays they will easily see that we are armed (not that it would matter) so how does one fight the system???




http://www.prisonplanet.com/whats-t...ed-checkpoint-booths-and-radiation-pills.html

Bullet-proof roadside checkpoint booths
If you’re still not convinced that the USA is rapidly devolving into a fascist police state with TSA and DHS goons feeling your genitals at the airport and randomly searching your bags on city busses, DHS has now bought tens of millions of dollars worth of bullet-proof roadway checkpoint booths featuring level-3 bulletproof glass (http://www.prisonplanet.com/after-huge-ammo-buy-dhs-purchases-bullet-…).
It forces us to ask the obvious question: For what purpose does the DHS need thousands of bulletproof checkpoint booths?
Once again, the answer is obvious: To quickly erect “show us your papers” checkpoints on roadways, highways and key traffic points nationwide.
Oh, by the way, DHS is also acquiring monstrous assault vehicles which you can see pictured here:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/homeland-security-unveils-monstrous-swat-…


A relatively monstrous SWAT style truck leads us to a whole new blob of police state developments, busy hands with little to do and a lot of hardware to do it.

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that's just basically wrong. reminds me of the old movies where you go through check points behind the iron curtain

could we use the term "what is you RAS for seeing my papers?" just wondering what that would do. i have seen youtube videos where citizens have challenged them

papa bear said:

that's just basically wrong. reminds me of the old movies where you go through check points behind the iron curtain

could we use the term "what is you RAS for seeing my papers?" just wondering what that would do. i have seen youtube videos where citizens have challenged them

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I think Skidmark said nearly those exact words!

Roadblocks, not checkpoints

The first and easiest thing to do is reject the statists' terminology. Checkpoint is a sanitized word intended to make a violation of liberty seem less so. Reduces suspicion and concern.

Just call them what they are--roadblocks. This was the term even in my youth. They've only gotten more numerous, and the justifications even more specious. Its not like roadblocks actually morphed into something less intrusive or nicer. Police just thunk up the work checkpoint for what is and has been all along a roadblock.

So gentlemen, I have not been following this at all (I did see where congress was considering TSA checks for mass transit). So are TSA checkpoints (roadblocks) a reality in this country, and specifically in Virginia currently? Have these intrusions already been used here in our commonwealth?

And if so, are we compelled to comply with their requests for identification since they are not Virginia police officers? Also, what happens if they approach a vehicle (motorcycle is a great example) and see that the driver is obviously armed?

Sorry for my ignorance in this area. I have say that this sort of government intrusion smacks of ominous tones to me.

SouthernBoy said:

So gentlemen, I have not been following this at all (I did see where congress was considering TSA checks for mass transit). So are TSA checkpoints (roadblocks) a reality in this country, and specifically in Virginia currently? Have these intrusions already been used here in our commonwealth?

And if so, are we compelled to comply with their requests for identification since they are not Virginia police officers? Also, what happens if they approach a vehicle (motorcycle is a great example) and see that the driver is obviously armed?

Sorry for my ignorance in this area. I have say that this sort of government intrusion smacks of ominous tones to me.

Click to expand...

From the previously posted link: http://readersupportednews.org/opin...mission-creep-is-making-the-us-a-police-state

Except even that doesn't work anymore. Earlier this month, the VIPRs came out again in Virginia and infested the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel, also known as the stretch of Interstate 64 connecting the cities of Hampton and Norfolk. Spokesmen admitted again that the exercise was a "routine sweep", not a response to any specific threat. Official news outlets admitted the checkpoint caused a delay (further exacerbated by a couple of accidents), but didn't say for how long. Local commenters at the Travel Underground forums reported delays of 90 minutes.


The way it works is they get the local authorities to "ask" for their assistance. Just like Tibet supposedly "asked" for China to invade and execute all the non-violent buddhist monks....Since they were asked in I assume they have the full force of law just as a local LEA. It would be like a Sheriff enforcing a stop sign on Walmart property. Walmart allows them to operate on their private property even though they could deny them access/authority. Also say a Chesapeake officer pulls you over for speeding in VA Beach. The two departments allow interagency cooperation over jurisdiction. The constitutionality is a separate issue.

(I hate this frikkin editor that won't let me indent/italic etc the way I want!!!!)

45acpForMe said:

From the previously posted link: http://readersupportednews.org/opin...mission-creep-is-making-the-us-a-police-state

Except even that doesn't work anymore. Earlier this month, the VIPRs came out again in Virginia and infested the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel, also known as the stretch of Interstate 64 connecting the cities of Hampton and Norfolk. Spokesmen admitted again that the exercise was a "routine sweep", not a response to any specific threat. Official news outlets admitted the checkpoint caused a delay (further exacerbated by a couple of accidents), but didn't say for how long. Local commenters at the Travel Underground forums reported delays of 90 minutes.


The way it works is they get the local authorities to "ask" for their assistance. Just like Tibet supposedly "asked" for China to invade and execute all the non-violent buddhist monks....

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...-security-drill-traffic-foul-hamp-ar-1824872/
A TSA spokesman, Kawika Riley, said, "At the request of the Virginia Department of Transportation, TSA has provided assets from our Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response (VIPR) teams for a joint exercise at the Hampton Roads Bridge and Tunnel." "This effort has been coordinated with our federal, state and local law enforcement partners in the area. VIPRs provide detection and response capabilities, and expand the unpredictability of security measures to detect, deter or disrupt potential criminal or terrorist operations."


​

Since they were asked in I assume they have the full force of law just as a local LEA. It would be like a Sheriff enforcing a stop sign on Walmart property. Walmart allows them to operate on their private property even though they could deny them access/authority. Also say a Chesapeake officer pulls you over for speeding in VA Beach. The two departments allow interagency cooperation over jurisdiction. The constitutionality is a separate issue.

(I hate this frikkin editor that won't let me indent/italic etc the way I want!!!!)

Click to expand...

We also have to add in the mix Private Security, mandated by the TSA which is the case of the Surry Security. Even though they work for VDOT, they work under TSA rules and ultimately answer to the Coast Guard.

It is a very complicated question about TSA setting up roadblocks on anything other than a transportation means (Ferry, Bridge, Train, Etc) that doesn't require someone to stop under State law. They do not have the same power as a police officer right now.

For instance, the FBI or US Marshal's can't give speeding tickets on Route 1 but could could in a National Park.

One concern is the increased cooperation between State and Local Police and Big Sis. There could be some changes in state law that could cause big problems and need to be watched for.

A good example of how they could be eased in is how the FBI has always operated. A man robs a Fast Food place in Richmond and the locals have a warrant. The FBI wants to make the headlines so they have a CI tell them they think he went out of state (Most of he time he didn't but that doesn't matter), to get jurisdiction.

They obtain an Unlawful flight to avoid prosecution Warrant (UFAP).

That gives them the right to arrest him and after the locals take custody, they dismiss the UFAP so they don't have to prove their case.

This has been standard procedure for many years and I expect TSA to pick up on it.

There also exists those "immigration checkpoints" that exist close to the southern U.S. border. By close I mean a good 50 miles north of the line. WTF? if you gonna verify immigration, do it at the border. If not, then whats the point? There are quite a few vids on youtube of people filming their experiences with these check point, and the first thing always asked is " will you please stop filming?" I don't think so. I can't believe these types of checkpoint were ever approved by anyone. They must be a easy transition from DUI checkpoints and gropings at the airport!

ryan7068 said:

There also exists those "immigration checkpoints" that exist close to the southern U.S. border. By close I mean a good 50 miles north of the line. WTF? if you gonna verify immigration, do it at the border. If not, then whats the point? There are quite a few vids on youtube of people filming their experiences with these check point, and the first thing always asked is " will you please stop filming?" I don't think so. I can't believe these types of checkpoint were ever approved by anyone. They must be a easy transition from DUI checkpoints and gropings at the airport!

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Good point Ryan...and a lot of those video's are people refusing to stop videoing and refusing to show ID...and getting away with it.

I had to laugh at one where a BP Supervisor started blubbering about how they all had a price on their head and the video just helped terrorists.:lol:

They used up all the terrorist fuel a long time ago. It's running on empty and most of us have had enough.

Just give up those freedoms a little at a time. All for the sake of "feeling safe." That's how it all begins. I guess since people are able to get away with not showing and I.D. , no arrest have been made for refusal and thus haven't made their way into any court to be determined unconstitutional?

SouthernBoy said:

So gentlemen, I have not been following this at all (I did see where congress was considering TSA checks for mass transit). So are TSA checkpoints (roadblocks) a reality in this country, and specifically in Virginia currently? Have these intrusions already been used here in our commonwealth?

And if so, are we compelled to comply with their requests for identification since they are not Virginia police officers? Also, what happens if they approach a vehicle (motorcycle is a great example) and see that the driver is obviously armed?

Sorry for my ignorance in this area. I have say that this sort of government intrusion smacks of ominous tones to me.

Click to expand...

I have also seen the article about congress considering checks on mass transit. I take a commuter rail train -not AMTRAk- from NoVA to DC and back daily for work. I have been considering 'not consenting' to any search or identifying myself (other than saying my name is metaphorically 'Rosa Parks') should they show up one morning on my train. (over the last 10 years or so there have been about a dozen times they've run a dog thru the train quickly without stopping, when stopped at a station)

So, i just goggled about tsa and mass transit and was interested enough to follow a link to their website dealing with mass transit/rail security. The page i landed on was here: http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/layers/rail/index.shtm

I noted on the second bullet of the article there is a link under VIPR teams for Federal Air Marshals, one for Surface Transportation, and one for Canine Teams. Attempting to examine information/authority under the link for Surface Transportation took me to: http://www.tsa.gov/404.shtm (dont bother going there, obviously it is 'page not found'.) It appears there isn't any authority to do anything. To double check i selected their menu item at the top of the page bar titled 'Research Center', and after landing on the appropriate page selected 'Security Laws' on the left side menu. http://www.tsa.gov/research/laws/law_regulation_rule_0010.shtm Surprise! There is only legal information dealing with the aviation community.

Soooooo, even with the pending legislation to provide 'Fusion Centers' for mass transit (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.3140) , it doesn't appear that TSA has any authority to ask or search for anything on my commute. Did I miss something?

45acpForMe said:

I have seen other posts that get into checkpoints. Off the top of my head, if you can legally turn around (not breaking any U turn laws etc) and avoid the check point technically that isn't sufficient RAS for them to chase you down. Of course the police may not see it that way and may chase someone down that attempts to avoid the checkpoint anyway. :-(

If you are driving and are asked for license and registration you need to provide them since driving is a priviledge not a right. Other than that you don't have to answer any questions. Depending on what they are looking for (DUI, license check, legitimate-bad-guy-on-the-run) your silence or non-cooperation may have the LEO take you downtown. This pain-in-the-a$$ technique in my opinion is simple intimidation since you may have kids in the car with you and don't want a social services hassle etc just to make your point.

My fear isn't really state police or sheriff deputies around here since they mostly follow the law or can be sued into lawful compliance. My fear is TSA viper units that are unconstitutional in the first place being allowed to roam the roadways stopping whomever they want. Suing a local (virginia) LEO department for violating your rights can be time consuming and costly but nothing in compared to the federal gubbermant! Since our governor already thinks drones are great for Virginia and I have heard of TSA viper units at truck weigh stations I don't know how long it will be before we all run into something like that. We will need to support (financially) whomever runs into it first and sues so that we can nip it in the bud. That is of course assuming constitutionally literate judges and a judicial process that works.

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I get that to drive is a privilege, but if you have done nothing wrong, what gives them the right to pull and check your car? They can't say probable cause for every third vehicle for the heck of it.

I know I sound ignorant on the topic and apologize for it. Just trying to wrap it in my head to understand it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

mpguy said:

I get that to drive is a privilege, but if you have done nothing wrong, what gives them the right to pull and check your car? They can't say probable cause for every third vehicle for the heck of it.

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Agreed. I just say no thank you, I don't want to participate. Besides THAT, they need RAS or PC.

45acpForMe said:

I have seen other posts that get into checkpoints. Off the top of my head, if you can legally turn around (not breaking any U turn laws etc) and avoid the check point technically that isn't sufficient RAS for them to chase you down. Of course the police may not see it that way and may chase someone down that attempts to avoid the checkpoint anyway. :-(

If you are driving and are asked for license and registration you need to provide them since driving is a priviledge not a right. Other than that you don't have to answer any questions. Depending on what they are looking for (DUI, license check, legitimate-bad-guy-on-the-run) your silence or non-cooperation may have the LEO take you downtown. This pain-in-the-a$$ technique in my opinion is simple intimidation since you may have kids in the car with you and don't want a social services hassle etc just to make your point.

snip

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I was pulled over for "avoiding" a DUI checkpoint a few years ago by making a legal U-turn. It was on New Years, I was younger - under 21 and didn't know as much about my rights, nor did I own a firearm so I wasn't carrying at the time. He asked for my license/registration, and seemed upset and asked me why I was avoiding the checkpoint. I told him that I had wanted to make a u-turn and that I hadn't seen a no u-turn sign, and asked him if there was one (as a serious, not sarcastic question.) He got pissed. He asked me to get out of the car, and I did. He asked me if I had been drinking, I hadn't been, and then started to administer a field sobriety test by having me follow his light with my eyes. I was trying to ask him for the second time what the reason was for me being pulled over when another officer pulled up, who seemed to be a superior to the one that had stopped me. My officer went over and talked to him, and the new officer walked over with him seeming a little annoyed. He asked me if I had been drinking and I said no, he told me to have a great night and they both went back to their cars and I left.

I also have an acquaintance who got an underage DUI (any alcohol in your system if your under 21) in North Carolina for blowing a 0.03 in the field, and then a .02 at the station. She was pulled over for the same reason, making a u-turn before a checkpoint.

I like the idea of stopping drunk drivers, but don't like the idea of checkpoints I strongly believe they are not constitutional or as effective as just having the officers participating driving around looking for people driving recklessly. The first time I was pulled over was for speeding in Chesterfield a little after 2AM, and the officer seemed to only car if I had been drinking or not and didn't give me a ticket. I have no problem with that, or the fact that he didn't write me a ticket :lol: