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Thread: Open carrying someone else's firearm?

  1. #1
    Regular Member punisherprice's Avatar
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    Open carrying someone else's firearm?

    If i wanted to carry someone's legally owned firearm on my person, is it covered under the 2nd amendment? This is a small paragraph reading on a blue card that says "C.C. Ord. 12.04.210 It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, give away, or permanently pass on to another person of any pistol, revolver, or any other firearm.......unless the first transferrer registers....to the new owner." I kinda thought about it and I'm not really being given the gun permanently, its really more borrowing it. But I dont feel that a LEO is gonna buy that if I am ever stopped.
    Can anyone put their $0.02 in on this matter?
    "Si vis pacem parabellum" - If you want peace, Prepare for war.

  2. #2
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    As a Clark County resident, you can take possession of a handgun for 72 hours before you are required to register it.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 06-26-2012 at 01:43 AM.

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    NRS 244.364 Limited authority to regulate firearms; restrictions concerning registration of certain firearms in county whose population is 400,000 or more.
    I think this is the correct cite.

    certain firearms in county whose population is 400,000 or more.
    1.Except as otherwise provided by specific statute, the Legislature reserves for itself such rights and powers as are necessary to regulate the transfer, sale, purchase, possession, ownership, transportation, registration and licensing of firearms and ammunition in Nevada, and no county may infringe upon those rights and powers. As used in this subsection, "firearm" means any weapon from which a projectile is discharged by means of an explosive, spring, gas, air or other force.
    2.A board of county commissioners may proscribe by ordinance or regulation the unsafe discharge of firearms.
    3.If a board of county commissioners in a county whose population is 400,000 or more has required by ordinance or regulation adopted before June 13, 1989, the registration of a firearm capable of being concealed, the board of county commissioners shall amend such an ordinance or regulation to require: a.A period of at least 60 days of residency in the county before registration of such a firearm is required.
    b.A period of at least 72 hours for the registration of a pistol by a resident of the county upon transfer of title to the pistol to the resident by purchase, gift or any other transfer.

    4.Except as otherwise provided in subsection 1, as used in this section: a."Firearm" means any device designed to be used as a weapon from which a projectile may be expelled through the barrel by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.
    b."Firearm capable of being concealed" includes all firearms having a barrel less than 12 inches in length.
    c."Pistol" means a firearm capable of being concealed that is intended to be aimed and fired with one hand.


    (Added to NRS by 1989, 652; A 2007, 1289)

    Registration
    Registration can be accomplished at any Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Substation and at any other law enforcement agency within the incorporated cities of Clark County. (North Las Vegas, Henderson, Overton, and Mesquite).

    Registration is quick, simple, and easy. To register simply bring your handgun (unloaded) to any police substation. Submit your State Drivers License or State Identification Card. If you were born outside the United States and its territories, you must also provide either documented proof of U.S. citizenship or documented proof as a permanent resident immigrant. You will receive a cursory background check and given a gun registration card. It's that simple; and there is no registration fee. Please Note: The gun registration card is NOT a permit to carry a firearm concealed. Carrying a firearm concealed without a permit is unlawful and punishable as a felony.


    my bold for emphasis.
    http://www.lvmpd.com/Permits/FirearmsRegistration.aspx
    sorry if this isnt accurately answering the question. had a hell of a day and did this in a few seconds...
    Last edited by Lostlittlerobot; 06-26-2012 at 02:07 AM.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    If you are only borrowing it, there is no requirement to ever transfer it to your name. I have personally been in possession of handguns borrowed from others including police officers for months at a time. It was still their gun, just in my possession. The gun was registered to them as the owner.

    The gun must be registered if it belongs to a Clark County resident. That is the requirement. You can be in possession of a gun that doesn't belong to you. Period. There is no "transfer of title" for borrowing a firearm, no matter how long the time.

    Another reason why the registration scheme is completely useless, even if it were legal. You just have to know what to say. The only way to get cited for owning an unregistered handgun is to incriminate yourself.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    As a Clark County resident, you can take possession of a handgun for 72 hours before you are required to register it.
    Please use the actual wording of the law. Your use of the word "possession" changes significantly the actual meaning of the law.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  6. #6
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    I have loaned firearms to visitor friends on many occasion, to OC without worry.

  7. #7
    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    There’s nothing codified with respect to carrying someone else's firearm (and from what I gather, nothing specific in case law either)… unless of course one is carrying it as a result of stealing it from the owner. Then, any carry of it would be unlawful. Although Clark County requires registration of a firearm (different categories of persons having different time requirements, etc., etc.), and the issuance of a registration (blue) card, there’s nothing in the County Code that requires the carrying and producing of that card. Of course, if your Clark County resident friend has let you borrow his legally registered firearm and you are “accosted” by the gendarme (or gestapo) simply because they observe you carrying (that happens sometime, huh?), and they want to “take a look” at the weapon to “verify” its registration, then one has to be prepared for the “dance” that will follow. That’s just how “simple” or “complicated” it is… nothing more. Whatever happens (and a whole lot of bad **** can happen because of the way the gendarme [or gestapo] might react), ultimately one has committed no crime and one cannot therefore be convicted of a crime.
    Last edited by usmcmustang; 06-26-2012 at 04:28 PM.

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    Sorry guys, I was not up to par. It is correct that if you possess the gun for less than 72 hours, there is no legal reason requiring it to be registered, but it looks like if you do not take the "title", however that is determined, that you can possess it longer yet.

    You are all righteous in stating that I should cite the text. I got lazy. It just seems like every day someone here or on Nevada Shooters or elsewhere is saying something like, "You can't carry a gun registered to someone else and you gotta carry the blue card" etc.

    So, what determines who has the "Title" to a gun, anyway? Does the blue card count as a "title?"

    What if the owner does not live in Clark County? For instance, say I have a friend Joe in Reno and I moved to Clark County, and I borrow his handgun after I become a resident.

    If I consider the handgun to be Joe's gun, and Joe considers it to be his gun, does that mean that it is legally Joe's gun and I never needed to register it because the title never changed hands, or will the courts decide that it isn't Joe's gun because I've had continuous possession of it for months or years?
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 06-26-2012 at 08:15 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    So what is the issue with letting your friend hold the blue card as well in the event of being hassled for it? All they have to do is contact the lender to verify it is in fact still owned by him/her, right?

    If I want to carry what is technically my wife's gun, I have been unable to find any law preventing me from doing so.

  10. #10
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    Sure, why not ... I personally rarely let my guns out of my sight when I let people use them ... but to each their own


    Remember, the 2nd amendment is just a piece of paper ... it cannot protect anyone by itself
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 06-26-2012 at 09:35 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    Sorry guys, I was not up to par. It is correct that if you possess the gun for less than 72 hours, there is no legal reason requiring it to be registered, but it looks like if you do not take the "title", however that is determined, that you can possess it longer yet.

    You are all righteous in stating that I should cite the text. I got lazy. It just seems like every day someone here or on Nevada Shooters or elsewhere is saying something like, "You can't carry a gun registered to someone else and you gotta carry the blue card" etc.

    So, what determines who has the "Title" to a gun, anyway? Does the blue card count as a "title?"

    What if the owner does not live in Clark County? For instance, say I have a friend Joe in Reno and I moved to Clark County, and I borrow his handgun after I become a resident.

    If I consider the handgun to be Joe's gun, and Joe considers it to be his gun, does that mean that it is legally Joe's gun and I never needed to register it because the title never changed hands, or will the courts decide that it isn't Joe's gun because I've had continuous possession of it for months or years?
    The "Law" --- A period of at least 72 hours for the registration of a pistol by a resident of the county upon transfer of title to the pistol to the resident by purchase, gift or any other transfer.

    What is "title to?" Well, in legal terms...



    “Title to” personal property (a firearm fitting the definition of "personal property") is generally shown by possession, particularly when no proof or strong evidence exists, showing that it has been stolen or known to be lost by another.


    Possession
    requires a degree of actual control over the object, coupled with the intent to possess and exclude others. The law recognizes two basic types of possession: Actual and Constructive.


    Actual possession
    exists when an individual knowingly has direct physical control over an object at a given time; for example: an individual open carrying a sidearm that has been loaned to him/her by the actual owner of the sidearm. The individual carrying the sidearm has actual possession of it.

    Constructive possession is the power and intent of an individual to control a particular item, even though it is not physically in that person's control; for example, an individual who has loaned a sidearm that he owns to his friend may be said to have constructive possession of the sidearm.



    So, seems to me that Judges are probably gonna use this definition of "title to" to determine if someone open carrying a "borrowed" sidearm in Clark County is within the "law." They might "rule" that a Clark County resident has the obligation to register the sidearm in Clark County after having taken "actual possession" of it. The "actual possession" would constitute "title to," as referred to in "the law." And, in accordance with "the law," the 72 hour clock starts ticking upon the taking possession of the sidearm. And... as far as "borrowing" goes, "the law" says also that transfer of "title to" can be not only by purchase or gift, but by "any other transfer," e.g. borrowing. This would certainly be an interesting case to watch unravel. However, I don't think we'll ever see such a case get to any court of much importance.

  12. #12
    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post


    So, seems to me that Judges are probably gonna use this definition of "title to" to determine if someone open carrying a "borrowed" sidearm in Clark County is within the "law." They might "rule" that a Clark County resident has the obligation to register the sidearm in Clark County after having taken "actual possession" of it. The "actual possession" would constitute "title to," as referred to in "the law." And, in accordance with "the law," the 72 hour clock starts ticking upon the taking possession of the sidearm. And... as far as "borrowing" goes, "the law" says also that transfer of "title to" can be not only by purchase or gift, but by "any other transfer," e.g. borrowing. This would certainly be an interesting case to watch unravel. However, I don't think we'll ever see such a case get to any court of much importance.

    I think you have an interesting take on it, but don't personally see it as a strong one.

    It seems to put a big stretch on the word "title".

    Though you may very well be right, my interpretation of "title" in the context of this law comes down to transference of ownership...in the case of Clark County this would be tied to or exhibited with the Blue Card, wouldn't it?

  13. #13
    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post
    I think you have an interesting take on it, but don't personally see it as a strong one.

    It seems to put a big stretch on the word "title".

    Though you may very well be right, my interpretation of "title" in the context of this law comes down to transference of ownership...in the case of Clark County this would be tied to or exhibited with the Blue Card, wouldn't it?
    I was just offering legal definitions of those terms used in "the law," e.g. "title to." That's the kind of "stuff" Judges are going to "point" to when rendering judgment.

    And... what if you (the one who has "actual possession" of the sidearm) ARE a Clark County resident, but the individual who loaned you the sidearm (the one who has "constructive possession" of the sidearm) is not a Clark Country resident and therefore no blue card exists.

    And... again, "the law" says "title to" and "transfer of 'title to' by... any other transfer." "Borrowing" is definitely a "transfer," albeit intended to be temporary.

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    I titled my car as the legal owner, and it is registered, so it can be legally driven. The State knows I own it. Nothing prevents me from letting somebody else drive it, openly, in public.

    The registration of a firearm shows who owns it. Does not restrict, as far as I can tell who may carry it or use it. If I go to the range and let somebody else shoot it, am I violating a law? I think not.

    I'm speaking hypothetically, because we don't have that nonsense in my county.
    Hoka hey

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    ...So, what determines who has the "Title" to a gun, anyway? Does the blue card count as a "title?"

    What if the owner does not live in Clark County? For instance, say I have a friend Joe in Reno and I moved to Clark County, and I borrow his handgun after I become a resident.

    If I consider the handgun to be Joe's gun, and Joe considers it to be his gun, does that mean that it is legally Joe's gun and I never needed to register it because the title never changed hands, or will the courts decide that it isn't Joe's gun because I've had continuous possession of it for months or years?
    Now you are seeing more of why the registration scheme in Clark County is not only a stupid, political waste of millions of dollars, but it is EASILY defeated simply by knowing what to say.

    If you loan your car to your friend, even if for months, are you required to tell him to stop at the DMV and put the registration in his name?
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-26-2012 at 11:03 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    I titled my car as the legal owner, and it is registered, so it can be legally driven. The State knows I own it. Nothing prevents me from letting somebody else drive it, openly, in public.

    The registration of a firearm shows who owns it. Does not restrict, as far as I can tell who may carry it or use it. If I go to the range and let somebody else shoot it, am I violating a law? I think not.

    I'm speaking hypothetically, because we don't have that nonsense in my county.
    Yes, registration of an auto or a firearm or generally any other personal property does show "who owns it." But, as I laid out, "the law" refers to who has "title to" it. And I've provided the legal definition of "title to." And "the law" goes on to described "transfer" of "title to." And has the catch-all phrase "any other transfer." Perhaps if such language were in the laws that govern auto registration, then we'd have the same "problem" there.

    Hey... I'm not arguing for anyone who borrows a handgun from a friend and open carries it to have to do anything but open carry it. I'm just offering what I believe the "yahoos" will try to jam down the throat of anyone "caught" in that situation. I'm of the firm belief, as someone previously posted, that this registration scheme is the biggest bowl of dog **** ever served up.

  17. #17
    Regular Member punisherprice's Avatar
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    The firearm is registered in Clark county to clear some things up, if any lol. I just wanted to know because carrying at 18 draws attention. Fast. All i need is some rent-a-cop calling the cops with a "man with a gun" and then they dispatch all of metro to detain me. I have yet to have a run-in with the police, so im still nervous about that. I just dont feel that telling them that you do not consent to any search or seizure will send them running....sorry about gettin off topic too.
    "Si vis pacem parabellum" - If you want peace, Prepare for war.

  18. #18
    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    Does this "possession" law apply if my wife is carrying my gun or is the "next-of-kin" concept applied?

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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    Yes, registration of an auto or a firearm or generally any other personal property does show "who owns it." But, as I laid out, "the law" refers to who has "title to" it. And I've provided the legal definition of "title to." And "the law" goes on to described "transfer" of "title to." And has the catch-all phrase "any other transfer." Perhaps if such language were in the laws that govern auto registration, then we'd have the same "problem" there.

    Hey... I'm not arguing for anyone who borrows a handgun from a friend and open carries it to have to do anything but open carry it. I'm just offering what I believe the "yahoos" will try to jam down the throat of anyone "caught" in that situation. I'm of the firm belief, as someone previously posted, that this registration scheme is the biggest bowl of dog **** ever served up.
    You're over thinking it. Really.

    I agree the registration thing is poop.
    Hoka hey

  20. #20
    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    You're over thinking it. Really.

    I agree the registration thing is poop.
    Nope... not over thinking it at all. Just applying legal definitions to words and phrases contained in the County Code. Don't you think that's what the prosecutors and judges would do as well? That is, if a case was ever taken to trial that fit the circumstances we're talking about... a Clark County resident arrested for possession of an unregistered hand gun, that is, one requiring registration pursuant to the County Code. And, seems to me a prosecutor could very well attempt to prosecute a Clark County resident in possession of and open carrying a "friend's" handgun... one having not been registered in Clark County because the "friend" isn't a Clark County resident. Many "stranger" prosecutions have occurred. But again, I wouldn't be at all afraid of being in possession of and open carrying a "friend's" handgun, no matter ANY registration issue. I am aware though, that cops are cops, prosecutors are prosecutors, and judges are judges... so anything can happen. If one thinks otherwise, well... be prepared to be surprised.

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