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Thread: Well I'm going to avoid St. Robert from now on.

  1. #1
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    Well I'm going to avoid St. Robert from now on.

    Last night I contacted the SRPD to see about open carry, well I was flat out told if I carry exposed I'll be arrested for scaring other people even if I haven't broken the law, I asked about my rights he said they don't matter if someone gets scared. Today I went in and filed a complaint, well this led to a discussion about what is legally required to carry a handgun openly and the assistant chief was die hard that it's 21 to even possess or purchase a handgun in ALL circumstances, he called his "knowledgable expert" who trains the PD, trains CCW, and is an FFL, well he proceeded to ramble laws that apply to FFL's not private sales and possession and then he refused to believe me as did the Assistant Chief. Then they called the ATF who then initially said the sale was illegal. Then Rolla PD gets informed on me and last the detective there knew carry at all required you be 23 with a CCW. I finished my complaint and left then was called later by the assistant chief that the ATF called back and said that my purchase and possession of the pistol is legal. Well the one thing I'm concerned about is that the officer feels strongly I need to be 21 to open carry, he also believes that a Maine OoS permit doesn't give you the right to CCW at 18 in MO. For now looks like I'll likely be arrested if stopped by police in Rolla now since I have to apparently prove my actions are legal and they have my name but not address as I didn't give them my Rolla address, just my permanent address in St. Louis. Well proving my actions are legal is kind of difficult here since the act is legal because it is not illegal. I'm ready to call a lot of BS on this whole situation but looks like I'm going to need to go into this with all the laws that apply in hand.

    To the best of my knowledge MO has nothing saying it's illegal to open carry under 21, in fact there is no law I know of concerning age to carry openly, but probably best to be 18 and the owner. Does anyone happen to know what all laws apply to help me correct the error in understanding the Rolla PD happens to have.

  2. #2
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    OK; I use to live in Missouri and was fairly active in the movement to get CCW and worked in a gun-shop and attended a couple "seminars" with the ATF.

    Federal law sets the age limit of 18 to posses or "receive" a handgun; 21 ONLY applies to purchases from an FFL; Missouri automatically recognizes ALL CCWs from other states with no age specification, known as the Missouri work around and deliberately inserted into the law by those directly involved in working up the law.

    As for open carry; Missouri law allows municipalities to ban OC and there is no real good list of those that do; the best available is through http://www.missouricarry.com and as a Missouri gun carrier you really should join that forum, THE most knowledgeable people in the state on gun laws are to found there, including the people responsible for Missouri having concealed carry. Post your experience there (tell 'em transplanted hoosier sent ya) and St Roberts will catch more heat than a habanero pepper.
    Last edited by F350; 06-26-2012 at 05:36 PM.

  3. #3
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    Hey man I am not sure if you have seen my other threads about the Rolla PD but I feel you on this issue.. Depending on the officer they are kind of retarded around here...(That is in no means a dig no all LEO's just the few that deserve it). F350 is correct as far as I know... Please get me the name of the officers you talked to from around here and I will call and have a talk with them and if I get the same treatment I will also file a complaint. As it is I am fed up with the treatment I have received on 2 of my MWAG call stops so I am done with just letting them talk to me and try to convince me the OC is illegal. So far I have not seen any of you other OCers arouind but I am really looking forward to the Meet and greet as I have a few things to ask you guys about and the like... If you want to link up at some point before the 14th just let me know... I am always up to meet fellow OCers.

  4. #4
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Dear God, why did you talk the the cops?!? O well, what's done is done.

    What everybody has said so far is correct. 21yo to buy from an FFL.

    As for where it says OC is legal, the simple answer is that it doesn't say it anywhere. The way the laws work is that they tell us what we can't do. I had a similar conversation with a LEO about this, but he approached me for more information about it. How I simply explain it is that I say, "What law specifically allows me to wear a red shirt? There is none. It's legal for me to wear a red shirt because there is no law forbidding me from doing so. Same idea with OCing. There is no law forbidding it, therefore it's legal" Sadly we're reduced to using simple analogies for these simple-minded folks.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    Dear God, why did you talk the the cops?!? O well, what's done is done.

    What everybody has said so far is correct. 21yo to buy from an FFL.

    As for where it says OC is legal, the simple answer is that it doesn't say it anywhere. The way the laws work is that they tell us what we can't do. I had a similar conversation with a LEO about this, but he approached me for more information about it. How I simply explain it is that I say, "What law specifically allows me to wear a red shirt? There is none. It's legal for me to wear a red shirt because there is no law forbidding me from doing so. Same idea with OCing. There is no law forbidding it, therefore it's legal" Sadly we're reduced to using simple analogies for these simple-minded folks.
    I had a similar conversation with some leo friends last November/December. They too, thought it was against the law to possess a firearm under 21. Fortunately, these guys did research it a little bit more and confirmed what we discussed. Otherwise, they stated if encountering a situation with someone OCing under 21, they would have prolly detained them.

    However, as HighFlying380 stated, don't ask the local LEO to get legal advice. They will tell you what they want YOU to do; not what is RIGHT!!
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  6. #6
    Regular Member Boba Fett's Avatar
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    The whole problem could be avoided by the rule of silence toward LEOs, right? Since you aren't required to give your age? I Turn 18 in 27 days and will be OC'ing. BTW is there anything special my dad needs to do to transfer the ownership of my gun to me? I also plan on getting a Maine permit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boba Fett View Post
    The whole problem could be avoided by the rule of silence toward LEOs, right? Since you aren't required to give your age? I Turn 18 in 27 days and will be OC'ing. BTW is there anything special my dad needs to do to transfer the ownership of my gun to me? I also plan on getting a Maine permit.
    If your father is not a FFL holder and wanted to sell the gun. He could do so to anyone who he was reasonably convinced was a resident of Mo and 18 years of age and not a felon. No reciepts, no permits, no transfers, NADA.

    I would recommend a bill of sale and a quick glance at a proper ID on both parties part, but nothing is legally required. Your father on the other hand could just hand the weapon to you and say it's yours, and it would then be a legal transfer. (as long as your legal to posess)
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  8. #8
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    To the youngsters joining the fight, some words of advice

    OC is a hazardous and complicated process in the state of Missouri. Your youth is NOT going to help you in this endeavor, in fact, it is HIGHLY likely to create a lot more problems in reality. I will offer that more than one of us flirting with middle age have been approached by the police for OC, even when legal. While you may not like hearing it, most police officers are going to think they can push you around at least verbally a lot more than they can me.

    Why? Because of age, nothing more, nothing special.

    you need to become very schooled in how to respond to contact to retain your freedom and you better be quite clear that you absolutely may be arrested, charged and stuck in jail until someone gets you out. Such thoughts are not for many, but if you go into OC thinking anything less, you are making a huge mistake.

    I am in no way trying to discourage you from open carry, I in fact would do the opposite, the goal of this post is to inform you of significant hazards and recommend education over all. When you are engaged by the police, it is likely that much of what you have read will instantly disappear from your mind and you will be nervous as can be, this is one of the primary reasons to keep your pie hole SHUT. Most folks that get arrested talk themselves right into it and NEVER underestimate the police ability to twist anything you say in a totally different direction than you said or intended, it is what they do.

    Once you have read and read and watched videos, follow some simple rules to assist in your security.

    1. have a fully functional recorder, even better if you can have a friend along recording.
    1a, at first contact, state you do not wish to speak to police in any official capacity and you will not be answering any questions and are you free to go, if you are, GIT!

    2. know that it is NOT court, there is no debate, there is no argument to be had, if you were not engaged in criminal behavior the officer could still have fully justifiable reason to stop you that you are totally unaware of, take no risk of putting yourself in jeopardy. Your jeans and red shirt could indeed be the description of a bad guy just 15 minutes ago in the same area, you have no way to know, do not put yourself there with your mouth, your freedom depends upon it.

    3. POLITELY resist all questions and decline any consent to search or seizure, and yes, some will include identification in that as well, your call on that one.

    4. you are required to comply with lawful "commands" but nor request. If an officer says "May I see your ID?" he is seeking consent and has no lawful reason he may demand it, or he may just be polite. If he rewords it at your request into a lawful demand, even if you do not agree, see rule 2 again, it is not court, and threats of lawsuits are thrown onto cops daily, keep your trap shut.

    Almost all of the open carriers surfing this forum who have been here a while have had police contact, some more than others and no, age was not a role, in fact old guys seem to have more contact but that is likely because there are more of us open carrying. The other thing that the police know, older folks get more merit in court against them than 20-30 year olds. It is a legal system not a justice system and it requires coin or political favor to win a whole lot more than it does the truth.

    Good luck and by all means, stay safe.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member Boba Fett's Avatar
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    Thanks for the well-rounded recap LMTD!

    Actually I've had police contact a couple times, and never had a problem. I have a normal life to live, and did not schedule to talk to a cop, therefore, my goal is to return to my scheduled activities ASAP. That's what's so wonderful about the "am/why am I being detained" and "am I free to go" routine.

    I don't plan on being an activist carrier, I'm going to OC because that is my preferred method of carry. I'm the one that the activists are protecting the right for. And I thank them for preserving my right to do so. But like I said, I'm not an activist, and just want to go about normal business and avoid LEO contact.

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