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Thread: LEO / OC - First Encounter.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    LEO / OC - First Encounter.

    Well, after all this time and all the places I've been and traveled with my sidearm, I finally had my first LEO / OC encounter last night.

    Due to a fatality on US23 and an error on my part, I came face to face with one of Prestonsburg's finest last night. Due to my error, I apparently mis-read the directions of the guy directing traffic for the LEO's, I ended up face to face with LEO's! Being that I had mis-read the aforementioned directions, the officer in question obviously thought I was either "high" or drunk and he questioned why I had turned that direction and I briefly explained that I had apparently misunderstand his hand directions and thought that it was OK to go ahead and turn, not knowing that the road had been closed down till they got it cleaned up. He then asked for my DL and I handed him both my DL & my CCDW, I do this because it's NEVER WISE to mention the word "gun" or "weapon" around some offcier's as they might be rookie's and have a hair trigger, so to speak. I figure it's best to give them both and then allow them to determine how they wish to proceed with things. It keeps you in the clear and allows them to feel safe and in control all at one time.

    He glanced over the license and then the CCDW at which point he asked if I was carrying and I told him, "Yes, I am". He then asked if it was in the 3-4 o'clock position and I told him, "Yes, it is". He then just told me, "Don't go for yours and I won't go for mine". I like that saying! *LOL* I replied, "You don't have to worry about that", and I chuckled a little. His backup, I guess you'd call him, was standing on the right side of my car and I happened to have had that window rolled down before I got stopped so I was able to converse with him while the other officer ran my tag. Both officer's were extremely professional and very nice. The one to the right side of my vehicle was of course watching because I had a weapon and that's fine by me. He told me that there was indeed an accident just up the road and they had it closed down because it was a falality. We talked briefly until the other officer returned with my license and CCDW. As he was standing to the left of my vehicle, I could hear dispatch reading back the information of their check.

    It had always been in question, at least when I had inquired previously, as to if LEO knew if we had CCDW when they ran the tag or not, well I'm here to tell you, if you ever wondered, they do! I remarked to the officer to my right that I had heard that they could tell when they ran the tag and he told me that they've been able to tell for awhile now.

    In the end they were both great guys and were very polite and friendly. This is how every LEO encounter should be.
    Last edited by neuroblades; 06-28-2012 at 12:32 AM. Reason: Spelling & Typos.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Well, after all this time and all the places I've been and traveled with my sidearm, I finally had my first LEO / OC encounter last night.

    Due to a fatality on US23 and an error on my part, I came face to face with one Prestonsburg's finest last night. Due to my error, I apparently mis-read the directions of the guy directing traffic for the LEO's, I ended up face to face with LEO's! Being that I had mis-read the aforementioned directions, the officer is question obvious thought I was either "high" or drunk and he questioned why I had turn that direction and I briefly explained that I had apparently misunderstand his hand directions and thought that it was OK to go ahead and turn, not knowing that the road had been closed down till they got it cleaned up. He then asked for my DL and I handed him both my DL & my CCDW, I do this because it's NEVER WISE to mention the word "gun" or "weapon" around some offcier's as they might be rookie's and have a hair trigger, so to speak. I figure it's best to give them both and then allow them to determine how they wish to proceed with things. It keeps you in the clear and allows them to feel safe and in control all at one time.

    He glanced over the license and then the CCDW at which point he asked if I was carrying and I told him, "Yes, I am". He then asked if it was in the 3-4 o'clock position and I told him, "Yes, it is". He then just told me, "don't got for your's and I won't go for mine". I like that saying! *LOL* I replied, "You don't have to worry about that", and I chuckled a little. His backup, I guess you'd call him, was standing on the right side of my car and I happened to have had that window rolled down before I got stopped so I was able to converse with him while the other officer ran my tag. Both officer's were extremely professional and very nice. The one to the right side of my vehicle was of course watching because I had a weapon and that's fine by me. He told me that there was indeed an accidetn just up the road and they had it closed down because it was a falality. We talked briefly until the other officer returned with my license and CCDW. As he was standing to the left of my vehicle, I could hear dispatch reading back the information of their check.

    It had always been in question, at least with I had inquired previously as to if LEO knew if you had CCDW when they ran the tag or not, well I'm here to tell you, if you ever wondered, they do! I remarked to the officer to my right that I had heard that they could tell when they ran the tag and he told me that they've been able to tell for awhile now.

    In the end they were both great guys and were very polite and friendly. This is how every LEO encounter should be.
    What law did you violate to give them cause to run your information?
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 06-27-2012 at 05:15 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    The way the law is written in Kentucky, if you're operating a motor vehicle you are required to issue an I.D. upon request.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    What law did you violate to give them cause to run your information?
    Although it was not intentional, he disobeyed a lawful order by an officer by not following the detour route.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I have to disagree; he misunderstood an instruction. Disobedience is a deliberate and willful act.
    There was no mens rea in his actions
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-27-2012 at 08:50 PM.

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    If I accidentally run a red light, I'm guilty of it. If I unintentionally speed, I'm still guilty of it. If you fail to yield a LEO's traffic instruction, you're still guilty.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I have to disagree; he misunderstood an instruction. Disobedience is a deliberate and willful act.
    There was no mens rea in his actions
    So how does an officer determine the difference? Mental telepathy? If an officer is standing outside of your vehicle at a distance and gives you a lawful traffic signal to turn left......and you turn right....

    ....how does the officer determine if you willfully disobeyed, or simply misunderstood the hand gesture if he isn't supposed to perform a stop? From the OP's perspective, it was a misunderstood gesture. However, maybe you could explain how the officer who pointed left and observed a vehicle turn right is supposed to know "Whoops! He obviously misunderstood and didn't intentionally do the opposite of what I instructed" by looking at a pair of tail lights headed down the wrong road.

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    What law did you violate to give them cause to run your information?
    i was gonna say the same thing

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    What law did you violate to give them cause to run your information?
    I had violated none but his assumption was the same as I would've had under the circumstances, had I worked beat patrol. Being that I had mistakenly, on my part, misunderstood the vague directions of the guy directing traffic where I turn onto US23 to head home, it had placed me on what was a closed road and so with them working a fatality, the lead officer assumed that I was either "high" or drunk and turned onto the closed road.

    I need to clarify somethime in this account, the guy that was directing traffic was not LE, he was one of those guys that drives those roadside assitance trucks that assit starnded motorists, he was trying to aid LEO's on their accident scene. It was a VERY BAD accident and I learned today why the road had been closed. But to be honest, the error was my fault but that was due to the guy directing traffic not being clear and not having blocked the lanes going the direction I was headed.

    I do not fault the officer's they were just doing their job and under the circumstances, i would've thought the same thing.
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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    Although it was not intentional, he disobeyed a lawful order by an officer by not following the detour route.
    The guy in question was not LE, he was a driver of one of those roadside assistance trucks that roam the roads here sometimes. He was just ill-equiped for the task at hand and hadn't blocked down the lanes with either signs or his vehicle. Additonally, when traffic to my immediate left had been motioned to go ahead and turn left as they were supposed to, he didn't make any motion for me to also make a left turn which is where they had routed the other traffic. Had he motioned me to turn left, I would've known that the road was closed. But in the end, it's no big deal, the officer's I talked with up the road understood once I explained it to them and they radioed back to the guy that he needed to block down the road so no one else made the same mistake.

    They had the road closed because they were trying to get medical personnel into the scene, and keep the scene as clear and clean as they could because they were awaiting the BRU to get on-scene.

    After reading over some of the other posts in reference to this, I need to also clarify that my mistake did not result in a "traffic stop" perse. The stop was only because the road ahead was closed and where the road assistance guy at the foot of the hill didn't have the road properly closed down as he should've, it lead my mistaken turn. As I noted, once the were aware that he hadn't properly closed the road and was only relying on mere hand gestures and a strobing flash light, they contacted him and had him block the road down.
    Last edited by neuroblades; 06-28-2012 at 01:00 AM. Reason: More info added to address misunderstamdings in the account.
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    I misunderstood and thought that it was LEO directing traffic. My apologies.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    I misunderstood and thought that it was LEO directing traffic. My apologies.
    It's alright, that was an error on my part. *LOL*

    I wrote it up before I had to head into work and I had many spelling errors & typos and left some details out.
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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Kentucky! I love this state!

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    Kentucky! I love this state!
    Enthusiasm or sarcasm?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Enthusiasm or sarcasm?
    Guess that could be misconstrued, sorry.

    I meant no sarcasm.

    Gun owners are treated pretty well in KY compared to some of the other places you read about on here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    If I accidentally run a red light, I'm guilty of it. If I unintentionally speed, I'm still guilty of it. If you fail to yield a LEO's traffic instruction, you're still guilty.
    Not me .. even when I run a red light, I am not guilty until a judge says I am ... facts have no part in our legal system

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    So how does an officer determine the difference? Mental telepathy? If an officer is standing outside of your vehicle at a distance and gives you a lawful traffic signal to turn left......and you turn right....

    ....how does the officer determine if you willfully disobeyed, or simply misunderstood the hand gesture if he isn't supposed to perform a stop? From the OP's perspective, it was a misunderstood gesture. However, maybe you could explain how the officer who pointed left and observed a vehicle turn right is supposed to know "Whoops! He obviously misunderstood and didn't intentionally do the opposite of what I instructed" by looking at a pair of tail lights headed down the wrong road.
    Mens rea v Actus rea
    If you open carry into a bank and they throw money at you because they think they're being robbed and didn't even wait for a demand then are you still guilty of robbing the bank?
    If you are talking a walk in the park and come upon someone who, upon seeing your openly carried firearm falls to the ground, rolls over onto his back and pees himself like a little puppy because he thinks he's being robbed, ... are you guilty of either robbery, mugging, or assault?
    Some crimes and many ordinances only require actus rea, whereas in serious crimes mens rea must be established.

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    Yeah, good luck with that David. My point is that with many crimes, a judge or jury is not going to accept excuses like "it was an accident", or "I didn't mean to".

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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Well, after all this time and all the places I've been and traveled with my sidearm, I finally had my first LEO / OC encounter last night.....

    .....In the end they were both great guys and were very polite and friendly. This is how every LEO encounter should be.
    I feel you handled this situation well. Others may tell you to not do anything like hand over your CC license but if everyone handled themselves like you and the officers were just as professional we wouldn't have any problems getting along with each other.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyOrangeJuice View Post
    I feel you handled this situation well. Others may tell you to not do anything like hand over your CC license but if everyone handled themselves like you and the officers were just as professional we wouldn't have any problems getting along with each other.
    Well, I had had many hours of training long before I moved back to Kentucky from Florida, I sat and studied under some really great instructors and took all that I had learned and applied it in the manner that was most productive. I know that under KRS, we, as gun owner's/carriers, are not legally required to inform LEO's whether or not we are carrying and that may be all nice and fine. But I prefer to take a most pro-active stance and ID myself, after all, they know as soon as they run your tag if you have CCDW or not.

    Because I took a pro-active stance and produced my CCDW along with my DL, the officer was equally as courteous and did not persue the issue any further other than his witty remark of, "If you don't go for your's, I won't go for mine"! *LOL* I gotta remember that one! *LOL*

    There is a safety protocol for traffic stops when you carry a weapon and if OC/CC exercise this protocol, traffic stops can go a whole lot smoother. Granted, there are 2 parties involved in a traffic stop and no matter how "together" we have ourselves, if the LEO isn't "together" as well, any traffic stop can go bad.
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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Mens rea v Actus rea
    If you open carry into a bank and they throw money at you because they think they're being robbed and didn't even wait for a demand then are you still guilty of robbing the bank?
    If you are talking a walk in the park and come upon someone who, upon seeing your openly carried firearm falls to the ground, rolls over onto his back and pees himself like a little puppy because he thinks he's being robbed, ... are you guilty of either robbery, mugging, or assault?
    Some crimes and many ordinances only require actus rea, whereas in serious crimes mens rea must be established.
    I see what you're saying, and agree.

    However, let's simply replace the officer with an inanimate object: A stop sign.

    Now, the OP approaches the stop sign and drives right through it. Now: Does his reason for doing so alter his legality? "Oh, sorry officer! I misunderstood! I thought it said "proceed".".

    Same difference: OP misunderstood officer's command/OP misunderstood sign. His intention is without regard, the only fact needed to make a stop is his non-compliance. If the officer WAS able to telepathically understand that the OP misunderstood, I can see your point in arguing Mens rea v Actus rea. but, how was the officer to determine this without telepathy? You argue that he shouldn't have conducted a stop?

    Even so....since when has intention become a valid argument against obeying lawful orders? Not seeing a stop sign fails to give anyone a valid excuse for driving through them. Still illegal regardless of intent. Does this change when the inanimate sign is replaced by a live police officer?

    Maybe I'm missing your point, but I still fail to see the validity of your argument that the officer had no business conducting a stop. The driver's intent has nothing to do with the legality of a traffic stop. Even if it did.....you still fail to explain to me HOW the officer is supposed to determine this without making a stop in the first place....unless: mental telepathy.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    Same difference: OP misunderstood officer's command/OP misunderstood sign. His intention is without regard, the only fact needed to make a stop is his non-compliance.

    Maybe I'm missing your point, but I still fail to see the validity of your argument that the officer had no business conducting a stop.
    WOW! I don't know if some of you fine folks just don't read the whole of the thread or you're just trying to make some kind of point.

    As I stated, the guy directing traffic was NOT a LEO!!!!! He was one of those roadside assistance guys that drives a truck, NOT LEO! The reason for the misunderstanding was because he DID NOT block the orad down as it should've been blocked down for such an accident! Had the guy had the road block as it should've been or had he given better directions, this misunderstanding would never had occured. Once the LEO's were made aware of this fact, they radio'ed him to block the road, instead of just depending upon hand signals.

    As for the "stop", there wasn't a traffic stop perse. The first officer I encountered used his flashlight properly and made me aware that hee needed me to stop, unlike the non-LEO guy. Once I had stopped for him he inquired and I explained the situation that lead me to being there. His inquiry as my asking for my DL was commonplace under just such circumstances and is S.O.P. They did their job excellently and we were all professional in our behavior. It was a picture perfect LEO/OC encounter.

    As for this foolishness about the "stop sign", it's comparing apples to onions! A stop sign is VERY CLEAR as to it's meaning and there's NO QUESTION. A guy standing in the middle of what is basically a 3-way intersection without any training in directing traffic and without having properly blocked the roadway to visually indicate the said road was closed to traffic going that way are 2 totally different things.
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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Aaaaah. Don't know why I keep thinking the guy directing traffic was a cop. I read your post, and still can't help but think of the guy directing traffic as a cop.

    Now that the fact that you weren't given a lawful command by an officer has sunk into my skull, I grasp the lack of reason for a stop.

  24. #24
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    Aaaaah. Don't know why I keep thinking the guy directing traffic was a cop. I read your post, and still can't help but think of the guy directing traffic as a cop.

    Now that the fact that you weren't given a lawful command by an officer has sunk into my skull, I grasp the lack of reason for a stop.
    It's OK. *LOL* Just wanted to get that part straightened out for detail.
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    What if the road assistance guy had been holding a stop sign?

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