LEO / OC - First Encounter.

Fallschirmjäger said:

Mens rea v Actus rea
If you open carry into a bank and they throw money at you because they think they're being robbed and didn't even wait for a demand then are you still guilty of robbing the bank?
If you are talking a walk in the park and come upon someone who, upon seeing your openly carried firearm falls to the ground, rolls over onto his back and pees himself like a little puppy because he thinks he's being robbed, ... are you guilty of either robbery, mugging, or assault?
Some crimes and many ordinances only require actus rea, whereas in serious crimes mens rea must be established.

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I see what you're saying, and agree.

However, let's simply replace the officer with an inanimate object: A stop sign.

Now, the OP approaches the stop sign and drives right through it. Now: Does his reason for doing so alter his legality? "Oh, sorry officer! I misunderstood! I thought it said "proceed".".

Same difference: OP misunderstood officer's command/OP misunderstood sign. His intention is without regard, the only fact needed to make a stop is his non-compliance. If the officer WAS able to telepathically understand that the OP misunderstood, I can see your point in arguing Mens rea v Actus rea. but, how was the officer to determine this without telepathy? You argue that he shouldn't have conducted a stop?

Even so....since when has intention become a valid argument against obeying lawful orders? Not seeing a stop sign fails to give anyone a valid excuse for driving through them. Still illegal regardless of intent. Does this change when the inanimate sign is replaced by a live police officer?

Maybe I'm missing your point, but I still fail to see the validity of your argument that the officer had no business conducting a stop. The driver's intent has nothing to do with the legality of a traffic stop. Even if it did.....you still fail to explain to me HOW the officer is supposed to determine this without making a stop in the first place....unless: mental telepathy.

Superlite27 said:

Same difference: OP misunderstood officer's command/OP misunderstood sign. His intention is without regard, the only fact needed to make a stop is his non-compliance.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but I still fail to see the validity of your argument that the officer had no business conducting a stop.

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WOW! I don't know if some of you fine folks just don't read the whole of the thread or you're just trying to make some kind of point.

As I stated, the guy directing traffic was NOT a LEO!!!!! He was one of those roadside assistance guys that drives a truck, NOT LEO! The reason for the misunderstanding was because he DID NOT block the orad down as it should've been blocked down for such an accident! Had the guy had the road block as it should've been or had he given better directions, this misunderstanding would never had occured. Once the LEO's were made aware of this fact, they radio'ed him to block the road, instead of just depending upon hand signals.

As for the "stop", there wasn't a traffic stop perse. The first officer I encountered used his flashlight properly and made me aware that hee needed me to stop, unlike the non-LEO guy. Once I had stopped for him he inquired and I explained the situation that lead me to being there. His inquiry as my asking for my DL was commonplace under just such circumstances and is S.O.P. They did their job excellently and we were all professional in our behavior. It was a picture perfect LEO/OC encounter.

As for this foolishness about the "stop sign", it's comparing apples to onions! A stop sign is VERY CLEAR as to it's meaning and there's NO QUESTION. A guy standing in the middle of what is basically a 3-way intersection without any training in directing traffic and without having properly blocked the roadway to visually indicate the said road was closed to traffic going that way are 2 totally different things.

Aaaaah. Don't know why I keep thinking the guy directing traffic was a cop. I read your post, and still can't help but think of the guy directing traffic as a cop.

Now that the fact that you weren't given a lawful command by an officer has sunk into my skull, I grasp the lack of reason for a stop.

Superlite27 said:

Aaaaah. Don't know why I keep thinking the guy directing traffic was a cop. I read your post, and still can't help but think of the guy directing traffic as a cop.

Now that the fact that you weren't given a lawful command by an officer has sunk into my skull, I grasp the lack of reason for a stop.

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It's OK. *LOL* Just wanted to get that part straightened out for detail.

What if the road assistance guy had been holding a stop sign?

flb_78 said:

What if the road assistance guy had been holding a stop sign?

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That, once again, was not the issue. I understand his handsign for STOP and that I did, but he did NOT make it clear, if he even tried, to NOT turn right.

Superlite27 said:

So how does an officer determine the difference? Mental telepathy? If an officer is standing outside of your vehicle at a distance and gives you a lawful traffic signal to turn left......and you turn right....

....how does the officer determine if you willfully disobeyed, or simply misunderstood the hand gesture if he isn't supposed to perform a stop? From the OP's perspective, it was a misunderstood gesture. However, maybe you could explain how the officer who pointed left and observed a vehicle turn right is supposed to know "Whoops! He obviously misunderstood and didn't intentionally do the opposite of what I instructed" by looking at a pair of tail lights headed down the wrong road.

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I agree totally.

Rotflmbo

Chance Meeting....Redux (Prestonsburg PD Offcier John Hall)

Well, as we all know, this past weekend was the "Laborday Weekend", a weekend the usually entails the "evil roadblacks"! *LOL*

Well, I had a chance meeting with the main officer that I wrote I wrote about in this thread! *LOL* It was around 3 a.m. Saturday morning and the Lady & myself had been out mountaintopping, watching the ever elusive "Blue Moon" friday night. As we were driving back through the city of Prestonsburg, near PCC campus. Ahead of us were the beautiful blue lights of a PPD cruiser and upon stopping as I recounted in this thread earlier, I notified the officer of my concealed sidearm. At this point it took a closer look at me and replied, "Hey, I remember you, it's on your right side, about 4 o'clock. Right"? I smiled and confirmed his information. I asked him if they were looking for alcoholic's and he confirmed and asked how I had been doing. A few sentence's of casual conversation and I was on my way.

This time I did remember to ask him his name and mentioned to him that I had written up the other instance for the OCDO forum, he seemed interested and I gave his the short-form URL. I explained that I was inquiring about his name because I had failed to ask the last time because I wanted to mention him by name because of his professionalism and courtesy. This highly professional officer's name was John Hall. We need more that are like him out there.