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LEO / OC - First Encounter.

neuroblades

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
1,240
Location
, Kentucky, USA
Well, after all this time and all the places I've been and traveled with my sidearm, I finally had my first LEO / OC encounter last night.

Due to a fatality on US23 and an error on my part, I came face to face with one of Prestonsburg's finest last night. Due to my error, I apparently mis-read the directions of the guy directing traffic for the LEO's, I ended up face to face with LEO's! Being that I had mis-read the aforementioned directions, the officer in question obviously thought I was either "high" or drunk and he questioned why I had turned that direction and I briefly explained that I had apparently misunderstand his hand directions and thought that it was OK to go ahead and turn, not knowing that the road had been closed down till they got it cleaned up. He then asked for my DL and I handed him both my DL & my CCDW, I do this because it's NEVER WISE to mention the word "gun" or "weapon" around some offcier's as they might be rookie's and have a hair trigger, so to speak. I figure it's best to give them both and then allow them to determine how they wish to proceed with things. It keeps you in the clear and allows them to feel safe and in control all at one time.

He glanced over the license and then the CCDW at which point he asked if I was carrying and I told him, "Yes, I am". He then asked if it was in the 3-4 o'clock position and I told him, "Yes, it is". He then just told me, "Don't go for yours and I won't go for mine". I like that saying! *LOL* I replied, "You don't have to worry about that", and I chuckled a little. His backup, I guess you'd call him, was standing on the right side of my car and I happened to have had that window rolled down before I got stopped so I was able to converse with him while the other officer ran my tag. Both officer's were extremely professional and very nice. The one to the right side of my vehicle was of course watching because I had a weapon and that's fine by me. He told me that there was indeed an accident just up the road and they had it closed down because it was a falality. We talked briefly until the other officer returned with my license and CCDW. As he was standing to the left of my vehicle, I could hear dispatch reading back the information of their check.

It had always been in question, at least when I had inquired previously, as to if LEO knew if we had CCDW when they ran the tag or not, well I'm here to tell you, if you ever wondered, they do! I remarked to the officer to my right that I had heard that they could tell when they ran the tag and he told me that they've been able to tell for awhile now.

In the end they were both great guys and were very polite and friendly. This is how every LEO encounter should be.
 
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KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
Well, after all this time and all the places I've been and traveled with my sidearm, I finally had my first LEO / OC encounter last night.

Due to a fatality on US23 and an error on my part, I came face to face with one Prestonsburg's finest last night. Due to my error, I apparently mis-read the directions of the guy directing traffic for the LEO's, I ended up face to face with LEO's! Being that I had mis-read the aforementioned directions, the officer is question obvious thought I was either "high" or drunk and he questioned why I had turn that direction and I briefly explained that I had apparently misunderstand his hand directions and thought that it was OK to go ahead and turn, not knowing that the road had been closed down till they got it cleaned up. He then asked for my DL and I handed him both my DL & my CCDW, I do this because it's NEVER WISE to mention the word "gun" or "weapon" around some offcier's as they might be rookie's and have a hair trigger, so to speak. I figure it's best to give them both and then allow them to determine how they wish to proceed with things. It keeps you in the clear and allows them to feel safe and in control all at one time.

He glanced over the license and then the CCDW at which point he asked if I was carrying and I told him, "Yes, I am". He then asked if it was in the 3-4 o'clock position and I told him, "Yes, it is". He then just told me, "don't got for your's and I won't go for mine". I like that saying! *LOL* I replied, "You don't have to worry about that", and I chuckled a little. His backup, I guess you'd call him, was standing on the right side of my car and I happened to have had that window rolled down before I got stopped so I was able to converse with him while the other officer ran my tag. Both officer's were extremely professional and very nice. The one to the right side of my vehicle was of course watching because I had a weapon and that's fine by me. He told me that there was indeed an accidetn just up the road and they had it closed down because it was a falality. We talked briefly until the other officer returned with my license and CCDW. As he was standing to the left of my vehicle, I could hear dispatch reading back the information of their check.

It had always been in question, at least with I had inquired previously as to if LEO knew if you had CCDW when they ran the tag or not, well I'm here to tell you, if you ever wondered, they do! I remarked to the officer to my right that I had heard that they could tell when they ran the tag and he told me that they've been able to tell for awhile now.

In the end they were both great guys and were very polite and friendly. This is how every LEO encounter should be.

What law did you violate to give them cause to run your information?
 
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CharleyCherokee

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
293
Location
WesternKy
The way the law is written in Kentucky, if you're operating a motor vehicle you are required to issue an I.D. upon request.
 

langzaiguy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
916
Location
Central KY
If I accidentally run a red light, I'm guilty of it. If I unintentionally speed, I'm still guilty of it. If you fail to yield a LEO's traffic instruction, you're still guilty.
 

Superlite27

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
1,277
Location
God's Country, Missouri
I have to disagree; he misunderstood an instruction. Disobedience is a deliberate and willful act.
There was no mens rea in his actions

So how does an officer determine the difference? Mental telepathy? If an officer is standing outside of your vehicle at a distance and gives you a lawful traffic signal to turn left......and you turn right....

....how does the officer determine if you willfully disobeyed, or simply misunderstood the hand gesture if he isn't supposed to perform a stop? From the OP's perspective, it was a misunderstood gesture. However, maybe you could explain how the officer who pointed left and observed a vehicle turn right is supposed to know "Whoops! He obviously misunderstood and didn't intentionally do the opposite of what I instructed" by looking at a pair of tail lights headed down the wrong road.
 

neuroblades

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
1,240
Location
, Kentucky, USA
What law did you violate to give them cause to run your information?

I had violated none but his assumption was the same as I would've had under the circumstances, had I worked beat patrol. Being that I had mistakenly, on my part, misunderstood the vague directions of the guy directing traffic where I turn onto US23 to head home, it had placed me on what was a closed road and so with them working a fatality, the lead officer assumed that I was either "high" or drunk and turned onto the closed road.

I need to clarify somethime in this account, the guy that was directing traffic was not LE, he was one of those guys that drives those roadside assitance trucks that assit starnded motorists, he was trying to aid LEO's on their accident scene. It was a VERY BAD accident and I learned today why the road had been closed. But to be honest, the error was my fault but that was due to the guy directing traffic not being clear and not having blocked the lanes going the direction I was headed.

I do not fault the officer's they were just doing their job and under the circumstances, i would've thought the same thing.
 

neuroblades

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
1,240
Location
, Kentucky, USA
Although it was not intentional, he disobeyed a lawful order by an officer by not following the detour route.

The guy in question was not LE, he was a driver of one of those roadside assistance trucks that roam the roads here sometimes. He was just ill-equiped for the task at hand and hadn't blocked down the lanes with either signs or his vehicle. Additonally, when traffic to my immediate left had been motioned to go ahead and turn left as they were supposed to, he didn't make any motion for me to also make a left turn which is where they had routed the other traffic. Had he motioned me to turn left, I would've known that the road was closed. But in the end, it's no big deal, the officer's I talked with up the road understood once I explained it to them and they radioed back to the guy that he needed to block down the road so no one else made the same mistake.

They had the road closed because they were trying to get medical personnel into the scene, and keep the scene as clear and clean as they could because they were awaiting the BRU to get on-scene.

After reading over some of the other posts in reference to this, I need to also clarify that my mistake did not result in a "traffic stop" perse. The stop was only because the road ahead was closed and where the road assistance guy at the foot of the hill didn't have the road properly closed down as he should've, it lead my mistaken turn. As I noted, once the were aware that he hadn't properly closed the road and was only relying on mere hand gestures and a strobing flash light, they contacted him and had him block the road down.
 
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davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
If I accidentally run a red light, I'm guilty of it. If I unintentionally speed, I'm still guilty of it. If you fail to yield a LEO's traffic instruction, you're still guilty.

Not me .. even when I run a red light, I am not guilty until a judge says I am ... facts have no part in our legal system
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
So how does an officer determine the difference? Mental telepathy? If an officer is standing outside of your vehicle at a distance and gives you a lawful traffic signal to turn left......and you turn right....

....how does the officer determine if you willfully disobeyed, or simply misunderstood the hand gesture if he isn't supposed to perform a stop? From the OP's perspective, it was a misunderstood gesture. However, maybe you could explain how the officer who pointed left and observed a vehicle turn right is supposed to know "Whoops! He obviously misunderstood and didn't intentionally do the opposite of what I instructed" by looking at a pair of tail lights headed down the wrong road.
Mens rea v Actus rea
If you open carry into a bank and they throw money at you because they think they're being robbed and didn't even wait for a demand then are you still guilty of robbing the bank?
If you are talking a walk in the park and come upon someone who, upon seeing your openly carried firearm falls to the ground, rolls over onto his back and pees himself like a little puppy because he thinks he's being robbed, ... are you guilty of either robbery, mugging, or assault?
Some crimes and many ordinances only require actus rea, whereas in serious crimes mens rea must be established.
 

langzaiguy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
916
Location
Central KY
Yeah, good luck with that David. My point is that with many crimes, a judge or jury is not going to accept excuses like "it was an accident", or "I didn't mean to".
 

HolyOrangeJuice

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
221
Location
AZ
Well, after all this time and all the places I've been and traveled with my sidearm, I finally had my first LEO / OC encounter last night.....

.....In the end they were both great guys and were very polite and friendly. This is how every LEO encounter should be.

I feel you handled this situation well. Others may tell you to not do anything like hand over your CC license but if everyone handled themselves like you and the officers were just as professional we wouldn't have any problems getting along with each other.
 

neuroblades

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
1,240
Location
, Kentucky, USA
I feel you handled this situation well. Others may tell you to not do anything like hand over your CC license but if everyone handled themselves like you and the officers were just as professional we wouldn't have any problems getting along with each other.

Well, I had had many hours of training long before I moved back to Kentucky from Florida, I sat and studied under some really great instructors and took all that I had learned and applied it in the manner that was most productive. I know that under KRS, we, as gun owner's/carriers, are not legally required to inform LEO's whether or not we are carrying and that may be all nice and fine. But I prefer to take a most pro-active stance and ID myself, after all, they know as soon as they run your tag if you have CCDW or not.

Because I took a pro-active stance and produced my CCDW along with my DL, the officer was equally as courteous and did not persue the issue any further other than his witty remark of, "If you don't go for your's, I won't go for mine"! *LOL* I gotta remember that one! *LOL*

There is a safety protocol for traffic stops when you carry a weapon and if OC/CC exercise this protocol, traffic stops can go a whole lot smoother. Granted, there are 2 parties involved in a traffic stop and no matter how "together" we have ourselves, if the LEO isn't "together" as well, any traffic stop can go bad.
 
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