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Thread: Flap Holster CCW

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    Flap Holster CCW

    Hi you all, this might be a stupid question, but I've been wondering if I carry my pistol completely concealed in a flap holster would that be considered open carry even though the pistol is concealed in the holster and under the flap.
    Last edited by cuba; 06-28-2012 at 01:48 AM. Reason: rephrased the question

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuba View Post
    Hi you all, this might be a stupid question, but I've been wondering if I carry my pistol in a completely concealed flap holster would that be considered open carry even though the pistol is concealed in the holster and under the flap.
    Wouldn't think so.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    No case law on point. Chances are you would at least be stopped and questioned. Arrested? Perhaps. Prosecuted? I highly doubt it.

    Interestingly enough, should the police remove the firearm from the holster in order to run the serial number, they have violated the Supreme Court decision in Arizona v. Hicks on plain view.
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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    No case law on point. Chances are you would at least be stopped and questioned. Arrested? Perhaps. Prosecuted? I highly doubt it.

    Interestingly enough, should the police remove the firearm from the holster in order to run the serial number, they have violated the Supreme Court decision in Arizona v. Hicks on plain view.
    I love this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=jfdEbe7e9GE

    I'm sure they'd find a way around it. The highest court just said a fine for failing to buy something = a tax, so we can't depend on precedent or logic, lol.
    Last edited by 77zach; 06-28-2012 at 11:54 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I love this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=jfdEbe7e9GE

    I'm sure they'd find a way around it. The highest court just said a fine for failing to buy something = a tax, so we can't depend on precedent or logic, lol.
    lolz

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    The highest court just said a fine for failing to buy something = a tax, so we can't depend on precedent or logic, lol.
    It's pathetic. This SCOTUS decision is obvious and blatant TREASON. Yet no one makes a move...

    I'm reminded of Monty Python. "This calls for immediate discussion!"

    America has doomed itself by using good manners as an excuse to let it's government do any damn thing it pleases...

    It's too late. You had your chances. Enjoy what your lethargy and ignorance have earned you! I've abandoned this sinking ship. Your only nope now is mass assassination of virtually the entire government. You wouldn't take action when the problem was small, I'm pretty sure you won't take action now that it is huge and right in your face...

    There's one thing you can depend on. Your rifle. But without riflemen, it just sits there. A nation of cooks.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    There's one thing you can depend on. Your rifle. But without riflemen, it just sits there. A nation of cooks.
    I shot rifleman at the Appleseed. But shooting is such a degenerative skill for me I couldn't shoot anything now. Regardless, I'm a cook in all the other ways, lol. Americans are too comfortable and entertained still. Nobody will lift a finger. The GOP will say they will, but they've never repealed anything.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuba View Post
    this might be a stupid question,

    if I carry my pistol completely concealed

    would that be considered open carry even though the pistol is concealed in the holster and under the flap.
    You're asking that if a completely concealed handgun is not concealed?



    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    It's pathetic. This SCOTUS decision is obvious and blatant TREASON. Yet no one makes a move...
    and what action are you taking?
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    You're asking that if a completely concealed handgun is not concealed?
    If the gun is completely concealed but you can still clearly see the print of a gun it's not considered concealed. If the holster completely conceals all the plastic and metal making up the gun, but the holster is still in the shape of a gun, then it wouldn't be concealed. If the holster was in a very rough L shape, then (I guess) it's concealed.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    If the gun is completely concealed but you can still clearly see the print of a gun it's not considered concealed. If the holster completely conceals all the plastic and metal making up the gun, but the holster is still in the shape of a gun, then it wouldn't be concealed. If the holster was in a very rough L shape, then (I guess) it's concealed.
    Say like in a fanny pack ? I guess anything with a substantial size hung off your waist could be considered a holster concealing a fire arm, I wonder how long would it take for the police to stop me if I was to strap on an empty flap holster, or if I even get questioned at all, your right concealed is concealed but mine and your interpretation might not be the police officer interpretation, I'm sure I'll beet the rap (I think) but not the ride and thats the problem right there the total asinine inconvenience.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    If the gun is completely concealed but you can still clearly see the print of a gun it's not considered concealed. If the holster completely conceals all the plastic and metal making up the gun, but the holster is still in the shape of a gun, then it wouldn't be concealed. If the holster was in a very rough L shape, then (I guess) it's concealed.
    if I can see the print of a gun i wouldn't say it is COMPLETELY concealed.

    If the holster is in the shape of the gun - then the gun isn't printing. The holster looks that way with or without a firearm inside of it.

    EDIT:

    IMO^^^^^^^^^
    Last edited by Schlitz; 06-30-2012 at 01:10 PM.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    If the gun is completely concealed but you can still clearly see the print of a gun it's not considered concealed. If the holster completely conceals all the plastic and metal making up the gun, but the holster is still in the shape of a gun, then it wouldn't be concealed. If the holster was in a very rough L shape, then (I guess) it's concealed.
    Do you have any legal citations to support your statements?

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Do you have any legal citations to support your statements?
    Yes. Search this forum. After senate republicans killed OC last year, this topic was discussed. A bulge that an officer suspects may be a gun=concealed. If the outline of a gun is clearly visible=not concealed. My comments on the holster are extrapolations.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Yes. Search this forum. After senate republicans killed OC last year, this topic was discussed. A bulge that an officer suspects may be a gun=concealed. If the outline of a gun is clearly visible=not concealed. My comments on the holster are extrapolations.
    If your correct I guees that I probably won't be able to carry in this beaut even if the flap is big enogh to cover the grip.


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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    and what action are you taking?
    Can't talk about it. Against forum rules.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    if I can see the print of a gun i wouldn't say it is COMPLETELY concealed.

    If the holster is in the shape of the gun - then the gun isn't printing. The holster looks that way with or without a firearm inside of it.

    EDIT:

    IMO^^^^^^^^^
    Ah, I did so enjoy my P38 holster full of Cheerios......



    Cop performing illegal search: "What's this?"

    Me: "Donut seeds."
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    Ah, I did so enjoy my P38 holster full of Cheerios......



    Cop performing illegal search: "What's this?"

    Me: "Donut seeds."
    Are you making this up or what.

    I was thinking of doing something along those lines but I hadn't decided what to carry in it yet.

    Worst case scenario I'll get to inspect how our hard earned taxes are been spent.
    Last edited by cuba; 06-30-2012 at 02:50 PM.

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    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuba View Post
    If your correct I guees that I probably won't be able to carry in this beaut even if the flap is big enogh to cover the grip.

    Wow! What a very cool cell phone/iPad holder.

    Excellent!

    AD (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Yes. Search this forum. After senate republicans killed OC last year, this topic was discussed. A bulge that an officer suspects may be a gun=concealed. If the outline of a gun is clearly visible=not concealed. My comments on the holster are extrapolations.
    I asked for a citation, not advise to search the forum for discussions.

    OCDO Rules:
    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
    Can you provide any?
    Last edited by notalawyer; 06-30-2012 at 09:24 PM. Reason: typo

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Yes. Search this forum. After senate republicans killed OC last year, this topic was discussed. A bulge that an officer suspects may be a gun=concealed. If the outline of a gun is clearly visible=not concealed. My comments on the holster are extrapolations.
    really. what statute is that?

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Yes. Search this forum. After senate republicans killed OC last year, this topic was discussed. A bulge that an officer suspects may be a gun=concealed. If the outline of a gun is clearly visible=not concealed. My comments on the holster are extrapolations.
    Incorrect. Just because an officer sees the outline of a firearm under a shirt does not mean it is not concealed per statute. In fact, there is currently a circuit split between the 3rd and 4th DCAs in Florida as to whether or not a "bulge" recognizable as a firearm constitutes probable cause for a search. It is as yet unresolved, nonetheless a bulge or outline does not make a firearm unconcealed.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Incorrect. Just because an officer sees the outline of a firearm under a shirt does not mean it is not concealed per statute. In fact, there is currently a circuit split between the 3rd and 4th DCAs in Florida as to whether or not a "bulge" recognizable as a firearm constitutes probable cause for a search. It is as yet unresolved, nonetheless a bulge or outline does not make a firearm unconcealed.
    Could have sworn there was a thread about a year ago where Stogie said a clear outline would not be considered concealed, per a court case that I can't remember the name of.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuba View Post
    Are you making this up or what.
    Google it. It's everywhere now.

    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Could have sworn there was a thread about a year ago where Stogie said a clear outline would not be considered concealed, per a court case that I can't remember the name of.
    Don't believe so, but I'll ask him.
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