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So my condo association took over 1 month ago....

jsanchez

Regular Member
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
499
Location
seattle
by the tennants, and tonite at our board meeting they are going to ban guns in our little park. They will probably say it reduces our liability or something like that. Does anyone have any arguments I can use in my defense.
 

1911er

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2009
Messages
833
Location
Port Orchard Wa. /Granite Oklahoma
damb!!! can they do that

Ask them what security co. they are going to hire to protect you and your guests and the other residents from the people who don't follow the laws.
 
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brianstone1985

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
132
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
Lame Condo Assoc.

I'd like to say that they can't do that... but I believe they can. The fact that it is private property means they can set their own rules. At least they cannot stop you from carrying on your person within your own home! I would try and find a new condo if I were in your shoes.

-B
 

decklin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
758
Location
Pacific, WA
I know this doesn't help you but this is one reason why I will never own a condo or a house in a Home Owners Association.
I was still in Iraq when my Wife bought our house. When she asked what I wanted I said I only had two conditions. No suburbs and no HMA.
So naturally my Wife picked a house in the suburbs.
At least I don't have an HMA telling me if I have the right to defend myself in the neighborhood. In fact, I've lived in this house for almost 2 years and my neighbors have never said a word about me carrying.
At your next meeting you could try showing them the Uniform Crime Reports, State Constitution and relevant State Laws. Basically just do your best to prove that less armed citizens do not equal less crime.
Good luck.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Tell them that they had better be willing to buy your condo so you can live somewhere that you're not being barred from carrying your self defense tools with you.

Just an idea.
 

LkWd_Don

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
572
Location
Dolan Springs, AZ
Ask them what security co. they are going to hire to protect you and your guests and the other residents from the people who don't follow the laws.

I agree with asking the HMA that, but I think I would go further.

Tell them that their proposal violates Article 1 Section 24 of our Washington State Constitution and then tell them that should you or any member of your family become the victim of any criminal activity within the Park or on your way to or from that park, that you will hold the HMA legally responsible. Additionally, even though they are not a Municipality, they in effect are acting in a municipal capacity and might also be in violation of State Preemption under RCW 9.41.290

Ask if they can afford the legal challenges that they are potentially exposing themselves to.

Article 1 Section 24 of WA State Constitution: http://www.leg.wa.gov/LawsAndAgencyRules/Pages/constitution.aspx
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.290
State preemption.

The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
 

waterfowl woody

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
137
Location
Silvana, Washington, USA
to put up a rule to stop lawful people from being safe is a great way to ask criminals to come in.

The more crime that shows up because its a "gun safe zone" will drop all of the owners value in their property.
criminals love a easy helpless score and that rule will make lawful people helpless and easy for criminals to pray on.

good luck and OC to the meeting
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
by the tennants, and tonite at our board meeting they are going to ban guns in our little park. They will probably say it reduces our liability or something like that. Does anyone have any arguments I can use in my defense.

And what is the penalty if someone carries a gun in the park? And is it enforceable?
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
At your next meeting you could try showing them the Uniform Crime Reports, State Constitution and relevant State Laws.


But there are no relevant state laws re: how a private homeowners association may regulate firearms in common areas.

Tell them that their proposal violates Article 1 Section 24 of our Washington State Constitution


But it does not. The federal and state constitutions only regulate the conduct of government, not private parties.

Additionally, even though they are not a Municipality, they in effect are acting in a municipal capacity and might also be in violation of State Preemption under RCW 9.41.290


How, exactly? There is no legal basis for your position. How exactly would you make this argument to a court?
 

decklin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
758
Location
Pacific, WA
But there are no relevant state laws re: how a private homeowners association may regulate firearms in common areas.



COLOR]

I never said that there were any such laws. I was implying that the HMA and tenants may not be aware of State Law concerning firearms.
If you were preparing to argue this issue you're telling me that you would not provide an overview of State Law?
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
by the tennants, and tonite at our board meeting they are going to ban guns in our little park. They will probably say it reduces our liability or something like that. Does anyone have any arguments I can use in my defense.

I think the idea that if they prohibit you from supplying your own security, then they must provide community security, and how do they think they are going to pay for a security company to provide that security?

I would think that the arguments will be on the legal liability side, and I would point out that they will be legally liable for your security if the motion passes. Liability is the argument that will prevail, whichever way the vote goes.

I agree...this is one reason I have/would never buy into a place that has a homeowners association.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
If you were preparing to argue this issue you're telling me that you would not provide an overview of State Law?


No. There's no reason to, since the HOA is sovereign in the common areas. State firearms law, v
is-à-vis the HOA's authority to regulate the common areas, does not apply. Why argue something that is irrelevant?
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
No. There's no reason to, since the HOA is sovereign in the common areas. State firearms law, v[/COLOR]is-à-vis the HOA's authority to regulate the common areas, does not apply. Why argue something that is irrelevant?

I think the question would come down "is an HOA or condo association a government that is under the purview of preemption" since they are a quasi-government entity under state law, and state law makes it explicit that all government entities are preempted, regardless of their nature.
 

jt59

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
1,005
Location
Central South Sound
It seems that at a minimum, you should be able to muddy the waters....and call for a legal review of the liability issue raised. If the COA is sued, (whether from an actual incident or simply a legal challenge to doing it by one of the COA members or group of them) and subsequently loses, who pays the bill?

At a minimum, it could be argued to apply to non-residents of the COA and not to the owners and something of this magnitude should require something more than a vote of who shows up vs the impacted communicty (all owners)....see below the requirements for voting, quarum's and proxy's. Was notice of the meeting properly delivered?

You can also debate this simply based on need..... what is the frequency or issue that demands a new "rule" even be put in place?

You should also validate the authority of board to make these kind of decisions in the by-laws of the association and what is your recourse to challenge it.

There are differences in HOA vs condominium associations in law:

Authority of board - properly elected - http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.308

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.304

bylaws: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.324

Rules for calling meetings: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.332

Voting/quorums: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.336

Voting and proxy: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.340

A lot of times, these types of boards act, but are so far behind in their own legal authority under some of these RCW, you may be able to make a case....and effect a delay while you marshall your own support to the issue.

p.s. - what is the crime stat's for the units... car prowls, breakin's, domestic disputes, assault ...same for the city that you are surrounded by:

http://www.seattle.gov/police/crime/

or neighborhood crime maps that are more specific to where you live; http://www.seattle.gov/police/crime/onlinecrimemaps.htm
 
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Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
Request a copy of the HOA bylaws, get on line and look up the state laws regarding HOAs, look to see if this sort of rule needs put to a vote by the owners. Look to see if they have to give notice etc etc.

In my past experience most HOAs do not follow their own rules much less state law. If you spend the time you will most likely find that they have broken a rule or two. Make them do it right hold their feet to the fire, petty tyrants hate it when you make them follow the rules. Go to each and every HOA meeting and speak up otherwise they will rule your life they already own you. If your renting read your lease to see what the rules are. If your renting then leave as soon as you can, if you own sell as soon as you can.

Don't live where someone else gets to tell you what to do unless you are willing to do what they say. Personally I would live in a cardboard box before I will ever live anywhere that has a HOA again.
 

Trigger Dr

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
2,760
Location
Wa, ,
IMHO, the "rules"that were in place when you moved inwould apply to curreent residents. The new "rules" would apply to those moving in after the new "rules" take effect.
Check the Landlord tennant act. There might be an answer there for you.
 
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