• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

So my condo association took over 1 month ago....

LkWd_Don

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
572
Location
Dolan Springs, AZ
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
But it does not. The federal and state constitutions only regulate the conduct of government, not private parties.
So then by what you are saying, even though the 2A exists as a protection from the Federal Government that any Government formed below it can simply ignore the 2A and abuse citizens as they wish? That the same would then apply to the Washington State Constitution not protecting all of Washington State?
If that is the case, then recent SCOTUS cases based upon State infringments of the 2A should all have been decided in favor of the states and not the individual citizens.


deanf said:
Additionally, even though they are not a Municipality, they in effect are acting in a municipal capacity and might also be in violation of State Preemption under RCW 9.41.290

How, exactly? There is no legal basis for your position. How exactly would you make this argument to a court?

A Home Owners Association is required to be registered with the Washington "Secretary of States" office in the same manner that all Cities, towns and other Municipalities are required to be. Though the before mentioned all have powers of Policing their own statutes or ordinances, a Home Owners Association still can make rules (legislate) much like a municipality can but have to rely on the Policing powers of others to enforce their rules and is why I mention that RCW 9.41.290 "might" be used/invoked to steer them away from establishing a rule that otherwise violates State Preemption.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
So then by what you are saying, even though the 2A exists as a protection from the Federal Government that any Government formed below it can simply ignore the 2A and abuse citizens as they wish?

The answer to your question turns on incorporation. I don't think the 2nd Amendment has been incorporated against the states yet, so the answer is yes.

If that is the case, then recent SCOTUS cases based upon State infringments of the 2A should all have been decided in favor of the states and not the individual citizens.

Which cases would those be?

A Home Owners Association is required to be registered with the Washington "Secretary of States" office in the same manner that all Cities, towns and other Municipalities are required to be.

So is every other corporation.

A better test might be: is the HOA audited by the Washington State Auditor, who is required to audit all municipal corporations? The answer is no. That's because the State Auditor only protects public funds. HOA funds are private - they are not allowed to incorporate as a municipality.
 
Last edited:

LkWd_Don

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
572
Location
Dolan Springs, AZ
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
But it does not. The federal and state constitutions only regulate the conduct of government, not private parties.

Maybe you would care to expound on this and fully enlighten us.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Maybe you would care to expound on this and fully enlighten us.


I would direct you to the Obama-care case released just this morning. In it, Chief Justice Roberts expounds at length on the concept of federalism, and artfully so. No need for me to rehash his fresh explanation.

Tell me, is it your contention that the Bill of Rights regulates private parties?
 

jsanchez

Regular Member
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
499
Location
seattle
So here is what the rule says...

Illegal drugs, firearms, and fireworks are prohibited.

The penalties are fines will be assessed, 1st offense - $50, 2nd offense - $100, 3rd offense - $200, 4th offense and subsequent offenses - $700.

Also call the coppers and prosecution and or other legal remedies.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Illegal drugs, firearms, and fireworks are prohibited.

The penalties are fines will be assessed, 1st offense - $50, 2nd offense - $100, 3rd offense - $200, 4th offense and subsequent offenses - $700.

Also call the coppers and prosecution and or other legal remedies.

Your firearm is not illegal.

They can only assess fines against the home/property/title and not an individual. Let the fine stand and pass it to the next buyer.

Call the cops for what? Your firearm is not illegal.
 

LkWd_Don

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
572
Location
Dolan Springs, AZ
Which law would that be? If HOAs are incorporated as a municipality, I will stand-down.

Then maybe you would care to expound on why RCW 9.41.290 is written in the manner that it is. When the legislature said..

~~Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may~~

We already know that Townships or Towns are a step under a City in that most Towns are basically an over-sized Neighborhood Association formed as a self-governing body in an Unincorporated area and normally have an elected Town Council. Cities and Counties are fully incorporated with the SoS Office and are generally charter or code based.

Now, please explain what other municipalities are then!

Or are you simply going to sidestep any question posed to you yet again?
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Then maybe you would care to expound on why RCW 9.41.290 is written in the manner that it is. When the legislature said..

~~Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may~~

We already know that Townships or Towns are a step under a City in that most Towns are basically an over-sized Neighborhood Association formed as a self-governing body in an Unincorporated area and normally have an elected Town Council. Cities and Counties are fully incorporated with the SoS Office and are generally charter or code based.

Now, please explain what other municipalities are then!

Or are you simply going to sidestep any question posed to you yet again?

Don, you are stating that the HOA is a municipality it is your responsibility to cite where in the state law that defines them as such. I am sympathetic to your argument, but that does not make it so.
 

LkWd_Don

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
572
Location
Dolan Springs, AZ
Don, you are stating that the HOA is a municipality it is your responsibility to cite where in the state law that defines them as such. I am sympathetic to your argument, but that does not make it so.

I am not stating that! I was saying that "might" could be the word that MIGHT have helped jsanchez.

As most association meetings would already be underway, I can only hope he has already gotten what he needs.

I'm off this thread Nick.
 

Difdi

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
987
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
IANAL, but assuming that the park is owned by the HOA, they may be able to have someone who violates their park rules legally trespassed.

If a condo owner is trespassed by the COA from the park that is part of the complex, would it justify withholding that portion of the COA dues that go towards maintaining the park?

Illegal drugs, firearms, and fireworks are prohibited.

The penalties are fines will be assessed, 1st offense - $50, 2nd offense - $100, 3rd offense - $200, 4th offense and subsequent offenses - $700.

The way you'd have to read the rule is "Illegal drugs, illegal firearms and illegal fireworks are prohibited." The other way to read it would result in legal absurdities the COA would be hard pressed to enforce. Aspirin is a legal drug, after all. If all drugs are banned, so are aspirin, sun screen and anything your doctor prescribes. The same goes for fireworks; If it applied to all fireworks, not just illegal ones, it would ban matches.

Banning aspirin, legal firearms and matches would be absurd and unenforceable. Though I bet they'll try to slap fines on people for legal behavior anyway.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
I'd like to say that they can't do that... but I believe they can. The fact that it is private property means they can set their own rules. At least they cannot stop you from carrying on your person within your own home! I would try and find a new condo if I were in your shoes.
-B

Can they say "No Liberals Allowed"? or "No Baptists Need Apply?"
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
Illegal drugs, firearms, and fireworks are prohibited.

The penalties are fines will be assessed, 1st offense - $50, 2nd offense - $100, 3rd offense - $200, 4th offense and subsequent offenses - $700.

Also call the coppers and prosecution and or other legal remedies.

Who owns your home? You? or the home owners ass?
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Towns are basically an over-sized Neighborhood Association formed as a self-governing body in an Unincorporated area and normally have an elected Town Council.


Have you even read the RCW that pertains to the incorporation of cities and towns? Are you familiar with the terms First Class City, Second Class City, and Town? Clearly not, if you think a town with an elected council is still unincorporated, as you seem to imply in the quote above.

Now, please explain what other municipalities are then!


Fire districts. School districts. Sewer districts. Parks districts. Hospital districts. All the junior taxing districts. The Cascade Water Alliance and many other municipal corporations formed by inter-local agreement. These are all municipal corporations which are not cities, towns, or counties. Municipal corporation is just another way to say municipality.

Is that a direct enough answer to your question?

The important distinction is public money versus private money: An incorporated organization that collects and spends public money is a municipality, and an incorporated organization that collects and spends private money is not. HOAs collect and spend private money.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
I am not stating that! I was saying that "might" could be the word that MIGHT have helped jsanchez.

As most association meetings would already be underway, I can only hope he has already gotten what he needs.

I'm off this thread Nick.

'Might' doesn't have any weight in an argument, 'might' can make your position look weak.

As dean clearly understands, there is no 'might' be a municipal......

Have you even read the RCW that pertains to the incorporation of cities and towns? Are you familiar with the terms First Class City, Second Class City, and Town? Clearly not, if you think a town with an elected council is still unincorporated, as you seem to imply in the quote above.

[/COLOR]

Fire districts. School districts. Sewer districts. Parks districts. Hospital districts. All the junior taxing districts. The Cascade Water Alliance and many other municipal corporations formed by inter-local agreement. These are all municipal corporations which are not cities, towns, or counties. Municipal corporation is just another way to say municipality.

Is that a direct enough answer to your question?

The important distinction is public money versus private money: An incorporated organization that collects and spends public money is a municipality, and an incorporated organization that collects and spends private money is not. HOAs collect and spend private money.
[/B]
 

Schlepnier

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
420
Location
Yelm, Washington USA
But there are no relevant state laws re: how a private homeowners association may regulate firearms in common areas.



But it does not. The federal and state constitutions only regulate the conduct of government, not private parties.



How, exactly? There is no legal basis for your position. How exactly would you make this argument to a court?[/COLOR]

Depends on the HOA, my HOA actually has in it's mandate that it follows state law so they cant pull that here.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington

The answer to your question turns on incorporation. I don't think the 2nd Amendment has been incorporated against the states yet, so the answer is yes.

McDonald v Chicago

Where have you been the past couple years?
 

LkWd_Don

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
572
Location
Dolan Springs, AZ
Have you even read the RCW that pertains to the incorporation of cities and towns? Are you familiar with the terms First Class City, Second Class City, and Town? Clearly not, if you think a town with an elected council is still unincorporated, as you seem to imply in the quote above.


Fire districts. School districts. Sewer districts. Parks districts. Hospital districts. All the junior taxing districts. The Cascade Water Alliance and many other municipal corporations formed by inter-local agreement. These are all municipal corporations which are not cities, towns, or counties. Municipal corporation is just another way to say municipality.

Is that a direct enough answer to your question?

The important distinction is public money versus private money: An incorporated organization that collects and spends public money is a municipality, and an incorporated organization that collects and spends private money is not. HOAs collect and spend private money.[/B]

I had unsubscribed from this thread and was not going to comment here again, but I see that some seem to be taking my declaration of being “off this thread” as being open season to attack me.

You have twisted what I said. You should reread it and then reconsider your position after you comprehend that I stated the Townships basically were over-sized neighborhood associations formed in UNINCORPORATED area’s I did not say that they are unincorporated.

Your going into an explanation of Taxing Districts without showing if they are an elected body possessing legislative ability (rule-making not just taxing authority) and if they possibly could be considered as being municipalities you again have completely avoided answering the question posed to you.

Your example of public money v private money holds weight, but that is a weak argument in general as that simply deals with a difference between taxation and membership dues/assessments, which can even include all non-profit and for profit membership based corporations.

Again, Please explain what the Legislature intends that other municipalities are!
The State Legislature intends municipality(ies) to still mean something or RCW’s such as 43.09.2853 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=43.09.2853 would not even exist or would not be worded how they are.

I know what the definition of municipality used to be and is why I stated that RCW 9.41.290 “MIGHT” be used. Till someone can show me definitively (without incessant sidesteps) that it no longer could apply, I will be of the opinion that it still “MIGHT” be useful to sideline, delay or otherwise derail deliberations by any Elected Board of Directors of community based organizations possessing rule-making (legislative) ability without taxing authority. Now, isn’t that a highly similar description of both a Town and a Home Owner Association?

RCW 9.41.290 is clear that Cities, Towns and Counties are Municipalities covered under it, but what the other municipalities are is what is in question.

Now if you look at the definition of a Town, it has less than 1,500 residents at the time of its organization and does not operate under Title 35A RCW http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=35.01.040

As only jt59 and I have even bothered posting links to substantiate what we are saying, I have to conclude that others insisting I am mistaken or have a duty to prove what I am saying are making personal attacks or simply spewing unsubstantiated rhetoric.

When I see an attempt at engaging in a rational discussion I will consider returning to discuss it further, other than that, this is my last post in this thread.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.52.090

(2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or



Well it's up to you and I offer no legal advise but you might try this as a defense for a charge of trespass.

You could argue that the restrictions were unlawful and that you as a home owner were paying for the private park and as such the posted restrictions could not apply to you.

What you do it up to you though good luck.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
I had unsubscribed from this thread and was not going to comment here again, but I see that some seem to be taking my declaration of being “off this thread” as being open season to attack me.

<snip>

As only jt59 and I have even bothered posting links to substantiate what we are saying, I have to conclude that others insisting I am mistaken or have a duty to prove what I am saying are making personal attacks or simply spewing unsubstantiated rhetoric.

When I see an attempt at engaging in a rational discussion I will consider returning to discuss it further, other than that, this is my last post in this thread.

Show where someone has made a personal attack against you. Your assertion of an idea has been challenged, you have not been personally attacked. If you can show where you have been personally attacked I will send a notice to the administrator so that it stops.
 
Top