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Thread: Pistol Purchase Permit Challenged

  1. #1
    Regular Member ken243's Avatar
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    Pistol Purchase Permit Challenged

    Hello everyone,
    I mentioned this to some of you at the Birmingham meet. My local police department was charging $10 for the pistol purchase permits. I notified them of MCL 123.1102 but they did not care. So on the 18th I went to the commission meeting. I handed out a copy of MCL 123.1102 to everyone from the city. I explained that violation and that I will not wait weeks for them to correct the issue. I told them I would report them to the state and file a lawsuit if need be. Two days later the Clio PD called and said my permit was ready fee free. I went and picked it up, picked up the SIG that was sitting at my FFL and took it shooting this past weekend.

    A couple days ago a journalist from the Flint Journal came to my house. She wanted to ask me some questions about my statements at the commission meeting. I answered he questions and this is the article she wrote.

    Please see my comment at the bottom, she messed up the story pretty bad. I was none too happy. Let me know what you think.

    http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...mobRedir=false
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The story comes off as just plane off, but then I guess it's the thought that counts?

    Preemption doesn't allow any fees for permit issuance, or a mandatory use of their notary. They can charge for a notary, provided they allow you to take it somewhere else and pay them nothing.

    As I've mentioned before, this was verified as fact by people working under Mike Cox at the AG's office a couple years back. Many departments have known these simple truth for many years because they have the ability any PD should have to interpret MCL's, and accordingly they don't violate them, including 123.1102.

    I can appreciate that it would be difficult for an outsider such as a reporter to grasp this stuff, because it doesn't interface with logic in any real way.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-29-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander
    Preemption doesn't allow any fees for permit issuance, or a mandatory use of their notary. They can charge for a notary, provided they allow you to take it somewhere else and pay them nothing.
    I don't see in the law governing issuance of the LTPCPTP where any notary is required. The law, MCL 28.422, only says applicants must sign applications for the license "under oath". That law does not define what "under oath" is, how an applicant comes to be "under oath", nor specifically what they have to perform to be considered "under oath". Presumably, then, it could be as simple as the applicant declaring something like, "I affirm I am signing my application 'under oath'."

    Somebody first needs to establish what "under oath" means, in MCL 28.422. Then we can discuss all the different ways "under oath" may be satisfied.

    Further, MCL 28.422 contains a ton of detail on the process it governs. For instance, one detail concerns a type of fee it allows: "The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy." Yet no where in this detailed law does it prescribe that a notary is needed for the license application nor, if a government agency uses a notary on its own volition, that it allows a fee for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander
    As I've mentioned before, this was verified as fact by people working under Mike Cox at the AG's office a couple years back.
    I do not believe anyone in government, including members of the AG's office, who represents as "fact" either 1)a notary or 2)notary fees are required for the LTPCPTP. That is suspect, and I believe it can be challenged.

    I certainly don't think, in the end of whatever all this discussion is, that notaries have some kind of Jedi magic that makes them indispensable to getting LTPCPTP's issued. If that were the case, MCL 28.422 would be specific about needing them for something.
    Last edited by DanM; 06-29-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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    DanM, I think the notary covers the purchaser in this instance. We are in agreement however, the law needs some definition.

    Why is it, that they take our oaths so seriously, while seriously neglecting their own?
    Last edited by stainless1911; 06-29-2012 at 11:08 AM.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    DanM, I think the notary covers the purchaser in this instance.
    I don't see anything in that section of the law about needing notarization or a notarization fee being allowed. Particularly in the bolded part, but nowhere else either:

    "(5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 2 copies of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired. The return of the copies to the licensing authority may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the licensing authority. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police of that determination."
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  6. #6
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    It's been so long, what does the form look like. The MSP is supposed to supply the form, do they have a notary portion on the form?

    (4) Applications for licenses under this section shall be signed by the applicant under oath upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police. Licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols shall be executed in quadruplicate upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police and shall be signed by the licensing authority. Four copies of the license shall be delivered to the applicant by the licensing authority. A license is void unless used within 10 days after the date it is issued.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    The MSP is supposed to supply the form, do they have a notary portion on the form?
    If so, I would argue the form contributes to malfeasance if it does not make clear to subordinate government agencies that no fee is authorized in association with a citizen obtaining a LTPCPTP, to include fees for notarization of the form which is not a requirement of the law.

    To be clear, I am ok in acquiescing to notarization of the form if the government argues that that fulfills the obligation of the applicant to be "under oath", but only if it is understood that such notarization is a government service already covered by our tax dollars, and no additional fees are authorized by the law.

    Of course, my acceptance of this form and being "under oath" is purely because it is a current legal requirement. The LTPCPTP law is part of the registration scheme and should be abolished.
    Last edited by DanM; 06-29-2012 at 07:26 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    here's how i handled it in st clair a few years back:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ing-preemption
    got a refund too
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 06-29-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    here's what the MSP says about it:
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...0953--,00.html

    1. Are there any fees for the following Michigan forms?
    License to Purchase: MCL 28.423 was repealed by PA 381 of 2000 eliminating the $5 processing fee for obtaining a License to Purchase. However, you may be charged a fee to notarize the application for a License to Purchase. MCL 28.422 A local police or sheriff may charge up to $1.00 for the cost of providing, to the owner, a copy of information that was entered in the pistol entry database.


    they fail to mention that you can go to the notary of your choice. i would think that if a notary tries to force you to use their service, they would be subject to losing their license. it doesn't sound ethical at all.
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  10. #10
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    here's what the MSP says about it:
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...0953--,00.html

    1. Are there any fees for the following Michigan forms?
    License to Purchase: MCL 28.423 was repealed by PA 381 of 2000 eliminating the $5 processing fee for obtaining a License to Purchase. However, you may be charged a fee to notarize the application for a License to Purchase. MCL 28.422 A local police or sheriff may charge up to $1.00 for the cost of providing, to the owner, a copy of information that was entered in the pistol entry database.


    they fail to mention that you can go to the notary of your choice. i would think that if a notary tries to force you to use their service, they would be subject to losing their license. it doesn't sound ethical at all.
    But the question, as Dan points out, is what is Under Oath mean. Is it defined as a notary? I don't know, but somehow don't think so. You have to sign a CPL application and take an oath in front of the clerk and there is no notary. So I suspect you don't need a notary at all. And since most cities pay for the notary fee to have on hand there shouldn't need to pay a fee.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I don't see anything in that section of the law about needing notarization or a notarization fee being allowed.
    "
    There isn't.

    What I meant was that the notary covers you as a purchaser, in case you are ever challenged or questioned, as applicants must sign applications for the license "under oath".
    Last edited by stainless1911; 06-29-2012 at 10:25 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    I found this:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(dmd...ND%20signature

    (1) An oath or affidavit other than an oath taken by a witness or a juror in a trial, or an oath required by law to be taken before a particular officer, may be taken before a justice, judge, or clerk of a court, or before a notary public.
    So it's not that the paper must be notatrized it's just that signing it, which I believe constitutes being under oath, can only be done in front of certain people one of which is a notary public.

    And looking at the powers of a notary public administering oaths is indeed one of them.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(dmd...20AND%20notary

    (1) A notary public may perform notarial acts that include, but are not limited to, the following:
    (a) Taking acknowledgments.
    (b) Administering oaths and affirmations.
    (c) Witnessing or attesting to a signature
    Later in that same law it states that a notary may charge up to $10.00 for any individual notary service.

    (7) The fee charged by a notary public for performing a notarial act shall not be more than $10.00 for any individual transaction or notarial act. A notary public shall either conspicuously display a sign or expressly advise a person concerning the fee amount to be charged for a notarial act before the notary public performs the act.
    I don't know....it's just some stuff I found.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    good info
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  14. #14
    Regular Member ken243's Avatar
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    As far as the notary goes I just went to my credit union for that.... They did not scam any money out of me.
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    right. i've gone to my bank before and they offer the service free.
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    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    Right. Most banks have a Notary on staff and do not charge their customers for the service.

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